Kevin's Watch

NightBlaze wrote:So, following the line of reasing here, TC fears to have responsibility for anything. Did he think lack of action made him less responsible? Or did I miss the point?

I don't think it is a fear of action. Did he not walk to the Phone Company? Is he not required, as he states, be an active participant in Bargain II?

IMO what Covenant is dodging is being in the position of Designated Savior. Demands are made of the DS which require the DS to act as if the Land is real. If Covenant were to yield to such demands, he would be seduced into the "trap" of believing the Land is real. If he believes the Land is real, he thinks he will die. Since Covenant wants to live, he needs to hold Land reality at arms length, and so he doesn't want to have those demands made of him, and so he doesn't want to be the DS.

The Bargain involves, each time, making someone else the DS. First, the Ranyhyn. Second, Elena.

Responsibility is not what he is ultimately averse to. He is penultimately averse to believing in the Land, and ultimately averse to dying a nasty leper death. The role of DS turns responsibility into belief, and so responsibity and action - particulary, DS responsibility and action - are anathema.

In [u]Lord Foul's Bane[/u] was wrote:This dream wanted him to be a hero, a savior; therefore it seduced him, swept him along-urging him forward so that he would run heedless of himself to risk his life for the sake of Wraiths, the Land, illusion.

Ironically, it is ultimately a feeling of responsibility, learned the hard way, which causes him to don the role of Designated Savior and act.

Wayfriend, great post.

Thanks amanibhavam and Wayfreind. That makes sense to me. I guess I didnt understand why he would refuse to act when the time came for TC. Then again, that question comes back to The Fundemental Question of Ethics.....

lurch wrote: ..Tom is scared of his own passions,,And..is perceived as the Lands Saviour. His bargaining is in an attempt to finding the balance between ,,,He knows the " Saviour" bit isn't right and he knows pure passion isn't right either. He struggles to find a good way to deal with the paradoxes and thus save the Land and thereby,,rise above his Guilt of leprosy.

Kinda like Mhoram's initial internal conflict in The Power That Preserves, where he's trying to find the happy medium between The Oath of Peace, the danger of the Ritual of Desecration, the need of the Land for him to use that dangerous power.

It seems to be oft repeated with the characters now that i think of it.

Wayfriend wrote:His first bargain, to the Ranyhyn:

In [u]Lord Foul's Bane[/u] was wrote:"Listen. I'll make a bargain with you. [...] You're free. I don't choose any of you. [...] But you've got to do things for me. If I need you, you had better come. So that I don't have to be a hero. Get it right." [...] And - and there's one more thing. One more. Lena -" Lena! "A girl. She lives in Mithil Stonedown. Daughter of Trell and Atiaran. I want-I want one of you to go to her. Tonight. And every year. At the last full moon before the middle of spring. Ranyhyn are what she dreams about."

The main part of the bargain was that the Land (here represented by the Ranyhyn) had to back off, to stop asking so much of him. The parts about the Ranyhyn coming if he called and visiting Lena were just add-ons.

This bargain was “kept” by the Land, but at a price. Other people had to die because Covenant wouldn’t accept the responsibility for saving the Land.

In The Illearth War,

Spoiler

Covenant makes a darker and even more selfish bargain, withholding himself from the Land’s fate and handing over his daughter in his place. But Elena and the Seventh Ward are no substitute for the White Gold.

In TPTP, Covenant finally gives up on bargains.

It’s easy to judge TC harshly because from our POV the Land is as real as Covenant’s home world. But from Covenant’s POV, accepting the “dream” Land’s reality and his importance to it endangers his real life. And note that this wasn’t a false concern:

Spoiler

Within six real-world weeks of encountering the Land, Covenant does indeed lose control over his leprosy badly enough that it would have cost him his life if not for the Creator’s intervention.

bump

Those bargains drive me batty, too. I get to the end of the book and my mind is going, "Wait a minute. What was his bargain again?"

These two posts sum it up best for me, as I understand TC's feelings and circumstances.

CovenantJr wrote:Indeed. Covenant's bargains were essentially abdication, or refusal, of responsibility.

1) He wanted other people to be the heroes because he didn't know how, he couldn't use his power, and he saw himself a mangy creature in many ways (leper, rapist, etc).

2) He resolved early on that the best way to stop his dream driving him insane was to simply ride it out. Don't get involved or take action, because that acknowledges the possibility that it's all real, which is the path to madness. Just weather it, get to the end, and get out.

Wayfriend wrote:Covenant goes on to say "No, don't ask me. I promised I wouldn't do any more killing. You don't know what I've done- to Atiaran- to- I made a bargain so I wouldn't have to do any more killing."

Part of Covenant's Ranyhyn bargain is a reaction to Soaring Woodhelven, and his participation in the battle there, killing Cavewights with the staff. This is then extended in his mind to Lena; he doesn't want to commit further violence against the people of the Land; he doesn't want to be put in a position where he might do something like that again. (Remember, he feels like Foul is putting him into corners where this will happen.)

So his bargain is not just cowardice and evasion. There is also a good side to it (although misguided and simplistic and probably in vain).

Plus the fact that Covenant really did want to believe the Land was real must have made his decions even harder, but the leprosy kept him focused. In hindsight some of his bargains really came back to haunt him, Atarian buring trying to summon him, the death of Elena and Lena. Covenant's actions in the Land while eventually necessary, caused a lot of grief and pain to himself and others. Hence the paradox of thw White Gold!

I think the main thing TC was worried about was that he would fail. In the beginning of LFB the old beggar tells him he has been chosen as the hero and from the second he sets foot in the Land other people re-inforce this (Lord Foul tells him his Enemy has chosen him, Lena sees him as berek reborn etc). He is afraid that if he actually has to take action he won't be able to live up to what people expect from him and will be a disappointment. Also, no matter what he says about not believing in the Land that doesn't want to be responsible for destroying it, dream or not. So if he makes all these bargains which require other people to be responsible he can manage to keep his distance and his unbelief. Perhaps he is also afraid that he DOES have power and that if he uses it the people of the Land will be proved right and then he will have to face up to things and let down the armour he has built up due to his Leprosy, which would be fatal to him in the 'Real World'.

lurch wrote:,,Fascinating timing of your question. There is excellent discussion of what you refer to , taken up a notch, in the Thomas Convenant Philosophies thread.

Apologies for resurrecting such an old thread but the discussion regarding the nature of TC's bargain is really excellent. I have tried and failed however to find the Thomas Covenant Philosophies thread also referred to... can anyone direct me?

Using Search, searching for "philosophy", title only, in only this forum, I find:

Philosophy and The Chronicles of Thomas Covenant

Philosophy of The Chronicles of Thomas Covenant

I think, based on the dates, that lurch was referring to the first one.

Spoiler

One of the 'what has gone before' sections of the later books, IIRC ROTE, has an explination of all three bargins.

IMHO

LFB - The Land is an illusion, save it yourselves
TIeW - I will help to defend the Land, don't ask me to fight or use power
TPTP - What do you need me to do in order to kill Foul?

he makes lots of bargents, i think the fundermental one is that he wont belive in the land but will live threw his 'dream' then he solidifies this by refusing to ride a ryhaymen but he asks them to save him if he needs it, he is constantly trying to avoid responsability for power ans getting others to agree to take the responsability he also refuses to love the land or accept its healing cos he knows he will go mad when he wakes up

Thorhammerhand wrote:LFB - The Land is an illusion, save it yourselves
TIeW - I will help to defend the Land, don't ask me to fight or use power
TPTP - What do you need me to do in order to kill Foul?

I'm not sure I agree with the last one, but it's really just a matter of semantics. I think it is more along the lines of - I'm going to go kill Foul.

Fair enough

drew wrote:Covenant was just hoping to be in the passenger seat.

I think drew hits the nail on the head here. The true nature of TC's bargain was that he would go along 'as a passenger' as drew said, as long as he was not expected to participate - as long as nothing was expected personally of him. His alternative was just to refuse to be part of any of it; of quests to find the staff of law, of battles against fouls minions, of delivering messages to the Lords. He could quite easily have sat it out in Revelstone and waited for circumstances to arise where he would wake up and find himself restored to his own world, but against that made the bargain outlined above.

soft one wrote: I think it is more along the lines of - I'm going to go kill Foul.

I think more like " The only way I am going to get through this thing that keeps happening to me and make it stop is to see it through to its end - and that means I have to go (and try to) kill Foul (but probably die myself in the attempt).

Thorhammerhand wrote: TIeW - I will help to defend the Land, don't ask me to fight or use power

I think the term bargain is used by SD very loosely and there are a number of proper bargains (eg with the Ranyhyn) mixed up with what really amount to TC's internal decisions.

In relation to TIW, I'm not sure that I would agree that he goes so far as to agree tp "help defend the Land". In particular, (as I posted elsewhere) I think his secret bargain with Elena is much more sinister than that.

Obviously Elena would like TC's aid in defending the Land and up to this point he has refused to assist - in fact, although his unbelief is waning, his viewpoint is still that it is unreal (he needs it to be unreal to maintain his ability to deal with his leprosy in the real world and hence his sanity). Now he "bargains" (ie decides independently really) to assist her - up to a point. That is he will assist her to reach Kevin's Seventh Ward so that she can use it and stand in his place as the hope of the Land.

But, this "bargain" arises just as he has witnessed her apocalyptic nature. He now sees the destructive force that she is capable of. Despite his affection for her, he is still really focussed on a return to his real world. He may no longer choose to positively disbelieve, but he hasn't changed his view that the Land is ultimately dangerous to him.

So he is looking for a way out of not only the responsibility the Land lays at his door but also a way back to his real world. He knows from LFB that his return depends on the death of his summoner. It is a terrible bargain, but he decides to help Elena reach the Seventh Ward in the knowledge that she might destroy herself and return him to his real life....

Great thread !
I was just re-reading this section of the Illearth War a couple of nights ago and was compelled to make a couple of comments.

TC's 'bargain' which springs 'fully-formed' into his mind straight after Elena's elsewhere-gaze comes frighteningly into focus, seems to me to be flawed from the get-go.

As far as I understand it, the bargain requires TC to become an active participant in his 'dream', a step up from his formerly passive stance.
His 'reward' for his participation is the removal of his head from the chopping block of Foul's machinations.

In a true TC paradox, his bargain is both incredibly cruel and cynical, and yet understandable given his circumstances.
The bargain dictates that he will install Elena, his (imaginary ?) daughter, as a proxy savior for the Land. He vows to encourage and aid her in any way possible, so that she might take his place as the hero/fool who would either defeat or fall victim to Foul.
It's not much of a bargain on a couple of levels.

Firstly, it is a truly reprehensible idea - in some ways. To set your own daughter up in order to wriggle off the hook of your responsibilities is pretty weak - but then again, TC truly doesn't believe at this stage that the Land is his responsibility - still, your own daughter ... also, as far as bargains go, he really isn't giving much of himself, hence his later attempts to make further recompense (shaving his beard etc ..)

Secondly, he's kidding himself if he thinks Elena could truly replace him as the pivot upon which the Land's fate revolves.
He recognises Elena's passion and potency and understands that this is exactly the kind of thing that Foul gleefully exploits. However, although Elena is powerful and more than likely capable of Desecration, she doesn't hold the White Gold. The cornerstone of Fouls plans is that he needs to obtain the White Gold so that he can break the Arch of Time and escape his imprisonment in the Land. Elena, though she may prove an entertaining diversion (and in fact, later on does become another lever for Foul to use against TC), simply cannot replace TC in Foul's grand scheme.

The last observation I wish to state is this : for all his intentions, TC's bargain doesn't really have much effect on proceedings.
I feel that Elena would have been only too glad to have taken on the role TC wished to proscribe her anyway. She wouldn't have needed too much encourgement - TC could most probably have openly told her of his bargain and she would have eagerly accepted the role imo ..
Also, TC recants his efforts on a couple of occasions, most obviously right as Elena is about to drink the Blood of the Earth - he flat-out tells her of his duplicity at this point.
Despite his worst intentions, a number of times he tries to sabotage his own bargain ..

SleeplessOne wrote:Great thread !
I was just re-reading this section of the Illearth War a couple of nights ago and was compelled to make a couple of comments.

TC's 'bargain' which springs 'fully-formed' into his mind straight after Elena's elsewhere-gaze comes frighteningly into focus, seems to me to be flawed from the get-go.

As far as I understand it, the bargain requires TC to become an active participant in his 'dream', a step up from his formerly passive stance.
His 'reward' for his participation is the removal of his head from the chopping block of Foul's machinations.

In a true TC paradox, his bargain is both incredibly cruel and cynical, and yet understandable given his circumstances.
The bargain dictates that he will install Elena, his (imaginary ?) daughter, as a proxy savior for the Land. He vows to encourage and aid her in any way possible, so that she might take his place as the hero/fool who would either defeat or fall victim to Foul.
It's not much of a bargain on a couple of levels.

Firstly, it is a truly reprehensible idea - in some ways. To set your own daughter up in order to wriggle off the hook of your responsibilities is pretty weak - but then again, TC truly doesn't believe at this stage that the Land is his responsibility - still, your own daughter ... also, as far as bargains go, he really isn't giving much of himself, hence his later attempts to make further recompense (shaving his beard etc ..)

Secondly, he's kidding himself if he thinks Elena could truly replace him as the pivot upon which the Land's fate revolves.
He recognises Elena's passion and potency and understands that this is exactly the kind of thing that Foul gleefully exploits. However, although Elena is powerful and more than likely capable of Desecration, she doesn't hold the White Gold. The cornerstone of Fouls plans is that he needs to obtain the White Gold so that he can break the Arch of Time and escape his imprisonment in the Land. Elena, though she may prove an entertaining diversion (and in fact, later on does become another lever for Foul to use against TC), simply cannot replace TC in Foul's grand scheme.

The last observation I wish to state is this : for all his intentions, TC's bargain doesn't really have much effect on proceedings.
I feel that Elena would have been only too glad to have taken on the role TC wished to proscribe her anyway. She wouldn't have needed too much encourgement - TC could most probably have openly told her of his bargain and she would have eagerly accepted the role imo ..
Also, TC recants his efforts on a couple of occasions, most obviously right as Elena is about to drink the Blood of the Earth - he flat-out tells her of his duplicity at this point.
Despite his worst intentions, a number of times he tries to sabotage his own bargain ..

I think that's half the answer. Covenant's bargain is understandable also in terms of his wanting the delusion to end, since that is his ultimate goal. What happens to his daughter, whom he feels at this point is an element of some delusion and not real, should according to his bargain be completely unimportant. However, by the end of TIW Covenant is feeling differently about Elena and the Land. His bargain seems cruel and reprehensible only in retrospect as Covenant learns to care more about the Land, whether or not it is a delusion.

It's important to understand not only this growing process, but that the "real" world looks very ugly to Covenant in comparison. This is made clear early on in LFB; when Trell heals the stoneware pot Covenant is already thinking to himself that this place, where people care about such things as stoneware pots, is too good to be a dream.

As for Elena being the appropriate proxy for the Land's savior, Covenant really didn't have much to choose from, the opportunity presented itself so he took what he was given. But I think there is one more important element here: there is an opportunity for Elena to redeem herself as a bastard child of rape, and therefore also to redeem her father. The natural instinct of the father is to want the child to make good and succeed, and to make him look good in the process. This is especially the case here since Elena is the product, not only of rape, but of guilt and pain.