hi,
i am reading the chronicles again after many years. i am at the end of LFB now and will be starting the Illearth War soon. Covenant is always talking about his bargain and i think i sorta understand it but i am not quite grasping it. i have this problem every time i have read it....i keep hoping that i will have an epiphany, but it aint' happenin'
i know in TPTP he makes a bargain too, can someone elaborate on that also? i love this series of books, but some of the things SRD writes go right over my head
In [u]Lord Foul's Bane[/u] was wrote:"Listen. I'll make a bargain with you. [...] You're free. I don't choose any of you. [...] But you've got to do things for me. If I need you, you had better come. So that I don't have to be a hero. Get it right." [...] And - and there's one more thing. One more. Lena -" Lena! "A girl. She lives in Mithil Stonedown. Daughter of Trell and Atiaran. I want-I want one of you to go to her. Tonight. And every year. At the last full moon before the middle of spring. Ranyhyn are what she dreams about."
"“Suddenly a desperate chance blazed in his eyes. He spun, gripped Covenant with his gaze, whispered, “There is a way! Prothall strives to call the Fire-Lions. He cannot succeed-the power of the staff is closed, and we have not the knowledge to unlock it. But white gold can release that. It can be done!”
Covenant recoiled as if Mhoram had betrayed him. No! he panted. I made a bargain-!
If this is referring to his bargain with the ranyhyn (to not ride them) then i dont undestand the connection between calling the fire lions and TC promising not to ride the ranyhyn.
Its is kindas the same in his Illearth War bargain.
He goes with Elena to find the Seventh Ward. This is because he hopes it will help Elena save the Land, instead of him.
But if you're all about the destination, then take a fucking flight.
We're going nowhere slowly, but we're seeing all the sights.
And we're definitely going to hell, but we'll have all the best stories to tell.
drew wrote:Basically, TC was hoping (barganing) that he won't be the hero, so that way nothing will be expected of him.
IE; if he doesn't ride a Ranyhn, he won't have to ride one through a battle
It was a little more than that.
As payback for not riding a Ranyhyn he expects them to save the day.
He puts all the responsibility on the Ranyhyn.
And garythfla, the part of the book that might be messing you up is:
Covenant recoiled as if Mhoram had betrayed him. No! he panted. I made a bargain-!
This isn't in quotes.
So TC wasn't speaking aloud.
It was in his head.
Nobody but the Ranyhyn know about the bargain but that passage sounds like TC expected Mhoram to know.
But it's just TC reaching a pinacle of cowardice, imho.
Indeed. Covenant's bargains were essentially abdication, or refusal, of responsibility.
1) He wanted other people to be the heroes because he didn't know how, he couldn't use his power, and he saw himself a mangy creature in many ways (leper, rapist, etc).
2) He resolved early on that the best way to stop his dream driving him insane was to simply ride it out. Don't get involved or take action, because that acknowledges the possibility that it's all real, which is the path to madness. Just weather it, get to the end, and get out.
High Lord Tolkien wrote:But it's just TC reaching a pinacle of cowardice, imho.
I disagree. You have not all the facts.
Covenant goes on to say "No, don't ask me. I promised I wouldn't do any more killing. You don't know what I've done- to Atiaran- to- I made a bargain so I wouldn't have to do any more killing."
Part of Covenant's Ranyhyn bargain is a reaction to Soaring Woodhelven, and his participation in the battle there, killing Cavewights with the staff. This is then extended in his mind to Lena; he doesn't want to commit further violence against the people of the Land; he doesn't want to be put in a position where he might do something like that again. (Remember, he feels like Foul is putting him into corners where this will happen.)
So his bargain is not just cowardice and evasion. There is also a good side to it (although misguided and simplistic and probably in vain).
High Lord Tolkien wrote:But it's just TC reaching a pinacle of cowardice, imho.
I disagree. You have not all the facts.
Covenant goes on to say "No, don't ask me. I promised I wouldn't do any more killing. You don't know what I've done- to Atiaran- to- I made a bargain so I wouldn't have to do any more killing."
Part of Covenant's Ranyhyn bargain is a reaction to Soaring Woodhelven, and his participation in the battle there, killing Cavewights with the staff. This is then extended in his mind to Lena; he doesn't want to commit further violence against the people of the Land; he doesn't want to be put in a position where he might do something like that again. (Remember, he feels like Foul is putting him into corners where this will happen.)
So his bargain is not just cowardice and evasion. There is also a good side to it (although misguided and simplistic and probably in vain).
I agree. And put this alongside Hile Troy (SRD makes this parallel, too, in GI); _he_ is willing to take all responsibility without counting the consequences, and see what happens.
Last edited by amanibhavam on Fri Jun 03, 2005 11:26 am, edited 1 time in total.
------------------------------------------------------------------------ love is the shadow that ripens the wine
...And that's what TC needed to discover by the end.
A point between his unbelief, and not wanting to do Anything.
And Troy's Belief, and wanting to do Everything.
I thought you were a ripe grape
a cabernet sauvignon
a bottle in the cellar
the kind you keep for a really long time
I'm rereading this section currently, nearly at the end of LFB. I think many of you here are right: he is trying to abdicate responsibility--but it's not just laziness, he's trying to keep himself sane. If he takes responsibility, tries to be a hero, tries to be "Berek reborn," he is not only admitting that the Land is real, but believing that things like Hope are real choices available to him. The dream/reality issue doesn't really threaten his sanity--no more so than our own dreams threaten our sanity each night. The real threat is that by taking on the Berek role he has to give up all the "truths" he learned as a leper (lepers can't hope, lepers can't rejoin humanity, lepers are outcast/unclean, lepers are screwed). If he accepts the Berek role, he must give up all these "truths" that he thinks keeps him alive. Believing that the Land is real, and taking a role in it, is not only crazy, it is destructive and a denial of the Unattractive Truth--so Covenant thinks.
Also, he thinks he is not like Berek, he is a leper unclean (his killing at Soaring, his red ring, etc.). So if he tries to be a hero, he'll end up damning the land anyway because he's corrupt. He'll destroy that which he tries to save.
On the other hand, he has trouble deciding that the land is unreal, because this is the kind of thinking that led to him rape Lena. Not thinking it is real is pretty much the same as being Lord Foul: it means that the Land doesn't matter, that he can kill and rape and maim and even destroy the Land itself to escape into the "real" world. But this is exactly what Lord Foul is trying to do: escape to a world beyond the Land because he doesn't think it is as real--or matters as much--as the one he comes from.
So Covenant is caught between two impossible choices, and "bargains" not to make any choice at all. Basically, this is a cop out.
Last edited by Zarathustra on Sun Jul 10, 2005 11:38 pm, edited 1 time in total.
,,Fascinating timing of your question. There is excellent discussion of what you refer to , taken up a notch, in the Thomas Convenant Philosophies thread.
..Tom is scared of his own passions,,And..is perceived as the Lands Saviour. His bargaining is in an attempt to finding the balance between ,,,He knows the " Saviour" bit isn't right and he knows pure passion isn't right either. He struggles to find a good way to deal with the paradoxes and thus save the Land and thereby,,rise above his Guilt of leprosy.
One of the complaints leveled at Donaldson has been the "ambiguity" of his characters ,,the lack of easy black and white situations and characters. The difficulty you may be having is or has been the same experience for any who have read Donaldson,,,and it is what draws us so faithfully to his work. He makes you stretch your mind.Maybe even inspire you to see your own life and situations in the same context of struggling to find a good way to deal with the paradoxes.? Good stuff......MEL
So, following the line of reasing here, TC fears to have responsibility for anything. Did he think lack of action made him less responsible? Or did I miss the point?
..Again ..I suggest a read thru the Philosophies thread.
The issue is the extremes. The exagerated state of things in "The Land" make the consequences of his decisions ...more immediate( compressed time) and much more felt , in impact. True innocence,,being befouled, look anywhere, Lena, her parents, etc, etc. Point i'm trying to make,,its the classic Donaldson set up.Of the two choices,,Saviour of the Land( heavenly sent God like figure),,or Desecrator of the Land( riping loose with the Wild Magic, pure Passion) neither can he accept. He knows hes no God Like Figure ( leper) and riping loose with the Wild Magic terrorfies him because he doesn't even know how to control it,,consequences unknown. Surviving in the real world is all about control, the constant survellance. Neither choice is acceptable, but both are constantly put infront of him by Fouls machinations. Thus ,,the seeds of despair sprout.
His bargains,,are his attempts to find a way in between the extremes. Finding the 3rd alternative or 4th. To do better than become despondent ( rise above his leprosy) Telling the ranyhyn to visit Lena. Yes he does outrite reject some actions and offers. Hes has a difficult time dealing with his original sin in the Land and doesn't want to repeat it. But eventually he takes command of his own path ..
....Maybe a metaphor will help. Its all about the gray. It starts out the darkest of black( the rape) and proceeds to wind thru all shades of gray until its all white gold. 99 per cent of the story is between the extremes of black and white. In a sense...the deals are not easy..they really arent' bargains at all..they have far reaching costs as do the extremes..but there is an element of hope to them that isn't there with the extremes. Despair is vanquished by hope....Thats why he holds to the bargains.That is his responsibilty. They are his hope,,rising above despair,, rising above being a unclean,, don't come into town anymore you filthy , uncurable, for the rest of your stinking rotten life, Leper....Don't touch me!!.......MEL
NightBlaze wrote:So, following the line of reasing here, TC fears to have responsibility for anything. Did he think lack of action made him less responsible? Or did I miss the point?
Think of it this way: before coming to the Land he spent months and months and months training-drilling-forcing himself to the one and only truth of his existence: that there is no hope for cure, and he can take absolutely no responsibility save for his actions for his own survival; everything else is false as it is based on the false assumption that his illness can be changed.
And then he is dropped to a place where literally everything denies this notion by its very existence. It's not so hard to imagine one does not want to face it.
TC was an extremely loyal man (one of the reasons why he got chosen). Loyal to the truth he believed to be the truth. In LFB he was loyal to the ragged-edge facts the doctors had ground into him. Afterwards his loyalty shifted - to the Land and its people.
------------------------------------------------------------------------ love is the shadow that ripens the wine
