Kevin's Watch

I'm lost. How did we get to helping others out of a fear for God? Where did that come from? Some of the things you guys pull out to put down something is such a stretch.


Actually, two major atheists caused the most damage this century, Hitler and Stalin. The reason there isn't more? Only b/c there haven't been enough opportunities. Lennon's song, Imagine, is a joke, b/c w/o religion, this world would be dead, long ago. There's a reason religion always has and always will be around, not b/c evolution made it up, but b/c there is a Creator!

I think this might be how we got here.

Cybrweez wrote:And if there is no God, why should I bother helping others? Why should I give up for the future, or anyone else?

Not such a reach, is it?

Oh: Hitler and Atheism:

www.nobeliefs.com/hitler.htm

one only has to read from his own writings to appreciate that Hitler's God equals the same God of the Christian Bible. Hitler held many hysterical beliefs which not only include, God and Providence but also Fate, Social Darwinism, and ideological politics. He spoke, unashamedly, about God, fanaticism, idealism, dogma, and the power of propaganda. Hitler held strong faith in all his convictions. He justified his fight for the German people and against Jews by using Godly and Biblical reasoning. Indeed, one of his most revealing statements makes this quite clear:

"Hence today I believe that I am acting in accordance with the will of the Almighty Creator: by defending myself against the Jew, I am fighting for the work of the Lord."

--A

The notion of goodness, helping others, and egalitarianism predates the notion of religion and theism. People were good long before god came in to the picture.

Also I find the argument that one can't fully understand or some lack of understanding on our parts isn't his fault to be a purely irrational, unfalsifible claim that is without merit. Many speak that faith is vital in belief yet religion has created several unfalsifible doctrines that effectively eliminate faith because they are very easy to believe especially when you are young and impressionable or in a particularly depressed state and looking for answers.
Did the god of the OT love everyone? He sure hated the amorites, edomites, phillistines etc....

Chuck Palahniuk wrote:"What you have to understand, is your father was your model for God. If you're male and you're Christian and living in America, your father is your model for God. And if you never know your father, if your father bails out and dies or is never at home, what do you believe about God?
"What you end up doing is you spend your life searching for your father and God.

"What you have to consider is the possibility that God doesn't like you. Could be, God hates us. This is not the worst thing that could happen."

So, my dad, who I've seen twice in my life, the last time when I was seven, loves me (it's possible. don't believe it, but it's possible), I'm supposed to feel the same thing back?

Avatar wrote:I think this might be how we got here.

Cybrweez wrote:And if there is no God, why should I bother helping others? Why should I give up for the future, or anyone else?

Not such a reach, is it?

Right? I was gonna ask who started this thread in the first place.

ur-bane wrote:For the record....I don't classify myself an athiest. I am not so much denying the existence of god, but I am trying to convince myself one way or the other whether or not I can honestly accept that there is/is not a god.
In a nutshell: I don't know for sure, and I don't have strong faith, but also somewhere in the back of my mind the concept of god is appealing. In the forefront of my mind, the concept of god is less appealing. I hope I make sense. I guess you'd have to label me agnostic.

I'd call you Fist and Faith, because that's exactly how I feel!

Avatar wrote:I think this might be how we got here.

Cybrweez wrote:And if there is no God, why should I bother helping others? Why should I give up for the future, or anyone else?

Not such a reach, is it?

Yes, it is. If there is no God, I see no reason. The reverse is not, if there is a God, I fear his punishment, so I better be nice to others. There's the stretch.

Oh: Hitler and Atheism:

www.nobeliefs.com/hitler.htm

one only has to read from his own writings to appreciate that Hitler's God equals the same God of the Christian Bible. Hitler held many hysterical beliefs which not only include, God and Providence but also Fate, Social Darwinism, and ideological politics. He spoke, unashamedly, about God, fanaticism, idealism, dogma, and the power of propaganda. Hitler held strong faith in all his convictions. He justified his fight for the German people and against Jews by using Godly and Biblical reasoning. Indeed, one of his most revealing statements makes this quite clear:

"Hence today I believe that I am acting in accordance with the will of the Almighty Creator: by defending myself against the Jew, I am fighting for the work of the Lord."

--A

You'll get no argument from me that Hitler used religion for his own purposes. I know he was a big fan of Nietchze(?) also.

Well, then Fist, since labels seem to always be in style, we'll have to come up with a label for ourselves. Agnostic doesn't quite cut it, because that implies that we'll never know. I have hopes that I'll know.

Maybe I'll call myself a Fistbanic from now on.

Cybr--in all seriousness, why does a "reward" for helping others need to come from god?

Cybrweez wrote:

Avatar wrote:I think this might be how we got here.

Cybrweez wrote:And if there is no God, why should I bother helping others? Why should I give up for the future, or anyone else?

Not such a reach, is it?

Yes, it is. If there is no God, I see no reason. The reverse is not, if there is a God, I fear his punishment, so I better be nice to others. There's the stretch.

Ah. Well, it's simply that we misunderstood your initial post.
I now think you meant: Why do good deeds if there is no God to reward you for them?
We thought you meant: Do good deeds so God doesn't punish you for NOT doing them.

My big question is: Why does God need to be a part of this at all? Why not do good deeds just for the sake of doing good deeds?

ur-bane wrote:Well, then Fist, since labels seem to always be in style, we'll have to come up with a label for ourselves. Agnostic doesn't quite cut it, because that implies that we'll never know. I have hopes that I'll know.

Maybe I'll call myself a Fistbanic from now on.

SWEET!! I'm the spiritual leader of a new... um... spiritual system.

Actually, I guess we diverge at one point. After a few decades of reading and these kinds of interactions, I don't have any expectation that I'll ever be convinced one way or the other. I decided that the question of a god's/God's/creator's existence is not important. Instead, I focus on the human/moral stances that people have, regardless of the path they took to them.

Fist and Faith wrote:... I decided that the question of a god's/God's/creator's existence is not important. Instead, I focus on the human/moral stances that people have, regardless of the path they took to them.

I can still call you a Fistbanic and we'll comprehend each other.

For me, it's not important either, but it is something I'd like to know.

Oh yeah, I'm certainly curious. Maybe someday someone in one of these threads will say something that convinces me. But I don't have any anxiety about it. Either way, this is the way I am.

Fist and Faith wrote:

Cybrweez wrote:

Avatar wrote:I think this might be how we got here.
Not such a reach, is it?

Yes, it is. If there is no God, I see no reason. The reverse is not, if there is a God, I fear his punishment, so I better be nice to others. There's the stretch.

Ah. Well, it's simply that we misunderstood your initial post.
I now think you meant: Why do good deeds if there is no God to reward you for them?
We thought you meant: Do good deeds so God doesn't punish you for NOT doing them.

My big question is: Why does God need to be a part of this at all? Why not do good deeds just for the sake of doing good deeds?

Amen, Fisty. Why not do them because they need to be done?

Well said the both of you.

--Avatar

Fist and Faith wrote:Ah. Well, it's simply that we misunderstood your initial post.
I now think you meant: Why do good deeds if there is no God to reward you for them?
We thought you meant: Do good deeds so God doesn't punish you for NOT doing them.

My big question is: Why does God need to be a part of this at all? Why not do good deeds just for the sake of doing good deeds?

Nope, not my initial post. It was, why do good deeds feel good? And if there is no God, why should I? I said nothing about what if there is a God, why should we.

But you didn't answer the q, cybr.

Why does god need to be involved at all?

Are you saying that you get no satisfaction whatsoever from helping others?

For me, good deeds feel good because I know what it's like to be down and out. I know the kind of hope and happiness a small deed can do for someone who otherwise feels hopeless. The satisfaction is knowing that even if it was for a short while, you gave somebody hope.

Well, Cyberweez, if I'm still misunderstanding your initial post, I'm lost. Nor do I understand, "I said nothing about what if there is a God, why should we." But that's ok. I've told you why I feel good from doing whatever good deeds I do, and why I do them despite not believing in any God. The answer is the same for both questions.

If, however, your initial post is asking something that has yet to be addressed, could you please reword it?