Help others?

[Cybrweez]

I'm curious, would most people agree that helping others feels good? Why is that?

And if there is no God, why should I bother helping others? Why should I give up for the future, or anyone else?

[[Syl]]

Pretty sure most others, especially at this board, would say that helping others feels good. I can't speak for others, but for me it gives a sense of self-satisfaction. Feels good for the same reason it feels good to be in shape. I also think helping others is the root to harmony, and harmony feels good because it is... right (same reason static sounds bad and music sounds good).

Sorry, but you might as well say, "If there's no God, why bother washing my clothes."

Are you saying you would have no love or compassion for your fellow man if God didn't ask it of you?

[Cybrweez]

Wouldn't you say exercise feels good b/c of biological reasons? Harmony feels good, but that just pushes the question back a level. Does harmony come from somewhere? What makes that feel good?

The question comes from Prebe, who felt sad for SalotHSar's needless conflict b/c of religion. I think I would have more conflicts w/o it. That made me wonder why helping others feels good, and greed leads to unhappiness.

I'm not saying what I would do if I believed there was no God, I'm asking why should I?

[wayfriend]

( As a Devil's Advocate to help launch this thread: )

Helping others engenders in others a feeling of gratitude to you. Hearing from others that they are grateful to you feeds your ego and inflates your sense of self-importantce. This is why you feel 'better'. (And this is why you hate it when you help someone who then doesn't acknowledge it.)

Helping others fosters feelings that others are dependent on you, that they need you. By being nessary to others, you become more important. This feeds your ego and inflates your sense of self-importance. This is why you feel 'better'.

Helping others demonstrates that you are more capable than others, that you can do for others what they cannot do for themselves. By comparing yourself to those you help, you feel like a superior person. This feeds your ego and inflates your sense of self-importance. This is why you feel 'better'.

So go help others. And bring your personal photographer.

[[Syl]]

But what if God said, "Cybrweez, you do not have to be good to other people"? For that matter, what if God told you that it was ok to kill people? Say, anyone with red hair, and everyone else that didn't have red hair was ok with it. Would you have no reason not to kill those redheaded bastards?

[duchess of malfi]

Wayfriend, but what about people who anonymously help others -- and there are plenty of people who do that. No ego stroking or praise there.

Cybrweeze, belief in God and wanting to help other people do not go necessarily hand in hand. There are some people, such as our own Furls Fire, who believe very strongly in God, and help others at every possible opportunity. I have also met people who claim to follow God and are abusive greedy bastards of the first order and are only out for themselves. I know other people, such as Fist and Faith, who do not believe in God at all, but who make a career out of helping other people and care very deeply about others.

I guess I just do not (out of my personal experience) see a connection between the desire to help others and religious beliefs.

I am sorry if this post offends anyone.

[Fist and Faith]

Empathy is the answer. We might pass by an auto accident, and see someone with a broken bone sticking through their skin. Naturally, we think, "DAMN! I'm glad that's not happening to me!!" We can also see someone suffering from malnutrition, and, again, be glad it isn't us. We can easilly imagine how these things feel.

But we can also feel the opposite side of things. We can see someone eating ice cream, and know how good it feels for them. I laugh for joy simply from watching my children laugh for joy. In a wey, we can feel how they feel. So when I see someone starving, I can also think, "I can imagine how unbelievably good the sudden rush of long-absent nutrition would feel to such a person if he got some food. I think I'll give him some food so he can feel that good." And how good would he feel if he was able to turn things around, get back on his feet, and possibly regain his sense of self-worth? If I could play a part in helping that happen for someone, why wouldn't I?

And if there is no God, why should I bother helping others? Why should I give up for the future, or anyone else?

Do you suppose God cares that you're only helping others because you're afraid of the punishment you'll get for not helping others? I work with developmentally disabled (almost always mental retardation to one degree or other) adults. One of the staff from one of the group homes arranged to have his pastor & family come to our location once a month to talk to our clients. They were there esterday. During the sermon, he said, "Jesus said, 'I will be your friend, if you do as I command.'" Not my idea of a friend. I know there are many who don't believe Jesus feels that way, but I'm sure enough do help others only because it's a commandment.

[duchess of malfi]

But what if God said, "Cybrweez, you do not have to be good to other people"? For that matter, what if God told you that it was ok to kill people? Say, anyone with red hair, and everyone else that didn't have red hair was ok with it. Would you have no reason not to kill those redheaded bastards?

Doesn't that sort of apply to the 9/11 terrorists? Didn't they think that God wanted them to kill people? Or at least that it was OK with God??

[Avatar]

I think Syl has asked the question that I would have. A variant of my favourite, "Would it be all right to kill people if god hadn't said it was wrong?"

During the sermon, he said, "Jesus said, 'I will be your friend, if you do as I command.'" Not my idea of a friend.

And this relates directly to the "What God Wants" thread, and as usual, I couldn't agree more with Fist.

Duchess, that's exactly what they thought. And those were great posts BTW.

But all this aside, I do think that the reasons WayFriend mentioned are the primary ones, in a "biological" sense. Or at least, a pre-programmed social sense. People are selfish. You have to cater to that to instill society, because it goes against what we are biologically predisposed toward. Society has, eventually, become built-in. But it all goes back to those imperatives.

Once you're in a social environment, in theory, what helps the other members helps the society, which helps you.

CyberWeez, there's a long and excellent thread in here about Altruism where we discuss the question at length, if you want to have a look.

--A

[Prebe]

Good posts all around, and I particularly liked Wayfriend's cynical approach, and Fist's empathic ditto.

Cybrweez: I certainly don't feel it necessary having a deity to inspire me to do good. I generally feel that the reward/punnishment systems in most religions have backward priorities: First you worship, praise and fear, and THEN you help. I believe it should be the other way around.

[Avatar]

Agreed Prebe.

--A

[ur-bane]

I also agree with Prebe. And Fist. I personally will never need fear of god as a motivational factor. If "god" truly loves us, then our deeds and treatment of our fellow man should be enough for "salvation." As soon as "...if you worship me" comes into play, I am turned off.

[Cail]

During the sermon, he said, "Jesus said, 'I will be your friend, if you do as I command.'" Not my idea of a friend.

Not sure if I agree with that. God (Jesus) loves everybody (that's sort of His thing, you know). God offers eternal life with Him in Heaven, all he asks is that we return his love (and love others as well, but that's what we're talking about here).

[ur-bane]

During the sermon, he said, "Jesus said, 'I will be your friend, if you do as I command.'" Not my idea of a friend.

Not sure if I agree with that. God (Jesus) loves everybody (that's sort of His thing, you know). God offers eternal life with Him in Heaven, all he asks is that we return his love (and love others as well, but that's what we're talking about here).

How can one reciprocate something that isn't felt? And why does love of God precede love of man? What kind of love does God continue to show us? Are we supposed to just take it for granted that He loves us all? We should just all sit back and let ourselves be brainwashed by a man-speaking-for-god like the Israelites?

[Cail]

Again, I think that's one of the fundimental themes of the Bible. God loves everybody. Not that we should take it for granted. Just because you may not feel God's love, doesn't mean that nobody does, and it also doesn't mean that God doesn't love you. It means you can't feel it, the failing isn't God's.

And who's talking about brainwashing?

[Avatar]

Interesting viewpoint Cail. (And I'm not surprised you disagree with that preacher.)

Still then: What is it that makes us unable to feel that love? Because personally, I don't feel anything coming back at me from the universe. Except the sense of vastness and nothingness perhaps. Certainly not love.

Perhaps you have to love god before you can feel it? In which case, it might as easily be a psychosomatic feeling as anything else?

You feel it because you expect it to be there? Hmmm...

--A

[ur-bane]

True, Cail, I can't feel it, but at the same time I can't tell others what they are feeling.

As I said in another thread, I get a different impression from the Bible, so there's where my responses come from.

As far as brainwashing, I guess that's another topic. (Religious rites often invovled sensory depradation as well as hallucinogens, making onlookers susceptible to suggestion.) My comment was based on my feeling that Moses tricked the Israelites into thinking he had spoken with god. (It's suspicious to me that only Moses was priveleged enough to see god on the Mount, and if anyone else approached they would be "struck down by the hand of god.")

[Cail]

Well, have you ever had someone tell you that a woman you've know for a while is interested in you, and you were completely oblivious? Same thing.

I've found that many athiests are just as dogmatic as the fundies when it comes to their denial of God. So in those cases, they've closed themselves to God's love.

For me, I felt God's love before I loved Him.

As far as the Moses thing, you've never heard of someone being a liason?

[Prebe]

I openly admit to being a fundamentalist atheist. It's about one of the only things I am fundamentalistic about

I admit so without shame, as I think fundamentalistic atheists are much less likely to cause damage, than fundamental believers in a fixed-code religion.

[ur-bane]

Well, have you ever had someone tell you that a woman you've know for a while is interested in you, and you were completely oblivious? Same thing.

Yes. Never thought of it that way before.

I've found that many athiests are just as dogmatic as the fundies when it comes to their denial of God. So in those cases, they've closed themselves to God's love.

For the record....I don't classify myself an athiest. I am not so much denying the existence of god, but I am trying to convince myself one way or the other whether or not I can honestly accept that there is/is not a god.
In a nutshell: I don't know for sure, and I don't have strong faith, but also somewhere in the back of my mind the concept of god is appealing. In the forefront of my mind, the concept of god is less appealing. I hope I make sense. I guess you'd have to label me agnostic.

For me, I felt God's love before I loved Him.

I am truly happy for you. If I felt it too, that would make it a lot easier for me, since my neverending battle for my own truth would be over.

As far as the Moses thing, you've never heard of someone being a liason?

Why, certainly. Moses as liason is exactly what is preached. However, i doubt the validity of that. We are talking about the defining moment in the history of these people. They are about to meet GOD!!! But wait, they have been ordered to stay away....after a promise of seeing god....they're going to have to take Moses' word for it amidst the trumpets and thunder, smoke and lightning. Sounds like distractive illusory techniques to me.