Kevin's Watch

Posted: **Fri Nov 11, 2005 6:56 pm**

Here is my interpretation of the Law/Earthpower/Elohim thing. (I may be repeating myself, but whatever.)

The Staff of Law is broken.
-> Since the Staff and the Law are connected, the Law is weakened by the blow.
-> Lord Foul uses the opportunity given him by the weakening of the Law and begins to corrupt the Earthpower, creating the Sunbane.
-> Since the Elohim are Earthpower incarnate, the Sunbane corruption bleeds into them, creating the Shadow over Elohim. Findail is not exempt.
-> Linden makes the new Staff of Law using Vain and Findail as raw materials. The Shadow over Findail would be included.
-> The Staff of Law begins to uphold the Law, but the warpage of Findail makes the Staff's idea of the Law slightly warped.
-> The Law becomes gradually warped in response to the warped Staff "upholding" it.
-> The warped Law makes Earthpower "think" the Sunbane is fine and dandy. The Sunbane 2.0 With Extra Vain Content starts to form gradually, beginning as Kevin's Dirt.
-> The Elohim may have gotten better in the interim, but now they are getting shadowed again...

Posted: **Fri Nov 11, 2005 7:06 pm**

I'm a big fan of the GI, but sometimes I think SRD's replies have made me more confused about Chronicles matters rather than less.

I agree with this completely.

Posted: **Fri Nov 11, 2005 10:18 pm**

As do I. I also think that that is deliberate!

Posted: **Fri Nov 11, 2005 10:59 pm**

I think this is mentally stimulating. One must look carefully at any statements that appear spoilerish and look what is said and what is not and what room there is for multiple meanings. It is like trying to parse Lord Foul's statements which I think is no coincidence. Not that I'm saying SRD is like Lord Foul as a person.

In the case of Linden and the Staff of Law, I think we cannot get around the fact that any significant contribution from Linden's personality to the Staff of Law is out. However the same statement has holes big enough for a truckful of very significant non-Linden re-making, especially from Vain and Findail who both either had a will of their own or were the direct result of other creatures' will.

How will the Shadow over the Elohim manifest? (I have already said I think this corresponds to the return of the Sunbane in some form.)

Were the ur-viles attempting anything beyond restoring a Law that was deep-down inimical to them or did their lore creation have hidden flaws since they wouldn't have been able to test it in practice? (Now that is a question. I think the Vain part will be significant but there is a lot we don't know about it yet.)

Posted: **Tue Nov 22, 2005 10:40 am**

You know, back when I read it the first time, I was mystified by the rain in the chapter Heedless in Rain. There was a huge rainstorm powered by malice, it made the chapter title, and it seemed to have no discernible purpose in the story. None at all.

I think we have it on reliable authority that Esmer did not cause the rain. The trouble is, there is a glaring lack of other people who could and would have done it. All the rain accomplished was to inconvenience Linden and Stave. Lord Foul would have done something more effective and better planned, if he even had reason to act against Linden at this point, which doesn't seem to be the case. Other possibilities like Kastenessen are even more far-fetched.

I am thinking that the rain is very significant in some non-obvious way. My theory (which you have probably guessed by now because of which thread this is in) is that the rain, like Kevin's Dirt, is an early harbinger of the Sunbane's return. We know the Sunbane started gradually. Perhaps after the clouding of the health-sense of the people of the Land the next phase was to introduce occasional freak weather and slowly increase the frequency of that until the weirdness had become the new norm.

Posted: **Tue Nov 22, 2005 7:40 pm**

I have nothing to add to your thoughts right now, Nerdanel, except that I just want to say it's always a pleasure to read your well-reasoned speculative posts in this forum.

Posted: **Thu Nov 24, 2005 7:59 pm**

I'm starting to doubt how well-reasoned or at least complete my previous post was. It could be that Lord Foul didn't like the idea of Linden learning things at the Horserite that could make her avoid fatal mistakes, so either he or a Raver, or just maybe the ur-vile lore-master, sent a rainstorm to make her so miserable that she wouldn't be able to think about the meaning of the Horserite. At the same time, Esmer arranged for a caesure to come in short order so that Linden would have to make her decision almost immediately.

Though, it could be that Lord Foul used the nascent Second Sunbane to make the rain for reasons outlined in the previous paragraph. I think I like this version.

Posted: **Wed Nov 30, 2005 6:02 pm**

I wanted to move this discussion from a TC thread to a Runes thread, in order to explore it without all the spoiler text, and since it's Nerdanel's thread and she says it's okay ...

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kevinswatch wrote:Ok, now, my big question is, why couldn't anyone in the Land use health-sense during the Second Chronicles? I think SRD gave some answer in the GI along the lines of "because of the Sunbane", but personally, I just that answer is a little lame.-jay

Wayfriend wrote:Health-sense arises from Earthpower. Earthpower was corrupted by Foul. This led both to the Sunbane and the loss of health-sense. Consider: if the people of the Land retained health-sense, could they have been fooled by the Rede? Could a Raver have controlled the Clave? Foul needed it that way.

kevinswatch wrote:Ok, I can accept that explaination. But I still have a problem with the whole 2nd/3rd Chronicles thing. It just seems like they're treating the same effect differently in both series. Now, I admit, that this is mainly a problem for me because of my obsessive-compulsive tendencies, heh. Let me see if I can explain what's bothering me.

So, in both the 2nd and 3rd Chrons, the people of the Land lose their health-sense. It's the same effect both times. Except the causes are different. In the 2nd, the cause was the Sunbane and Lord Foul. In the 3rd, we still don't know what the cause is.

In the 3rd Chrons, they give this effect a name, "Kevin's Dirt", and they (Linden & Co.) make a big deal about the fact that this effect exists. They actually make an effort (using the Staff) to give Linden and Liand back their health-sense abilities.

In the 2nd Chrons, they don't give this effect a name, and they hardly care about it. They don't make any effort to heal the people of the Land, to regain their health sense. Linden is able to use the health-sense, and that's that. There was no issue made about it, at least that I can remember. Except for the fact that Covenant complains about it a bit. But like I said, they didn't seem to care enough to make a deal about healing the problem, unlike the 3rd Chrons.

Perhaps it's simply because Linden had the health-sense in the 2nd Chrons (for whatever reasons, heh), and so she didn't care about solving this problem. But since she lacked the health-sense in the 3rd Chrons, she felt like she had to solve the problem right away. Isn't that a bit egotistical of her? Hehe.

Heh, like I said, this really isn't a problem, but more of my obsessive-compulsive nature. It just bothers me that we have the same effect in the 2nd and 3rd series, and these effects are treated differently both times.

-jay

Nerdanel wrote:My answer to the difference between the 2nd and 3rd Chronicles:

The effect has gone much farther in the Second Chronicles While the lack of health-sense was a problem, it was dwarfed in immediacy by the Sunbane's other properties. Besides, with the evil of the Sunbane in full force, the health-sense had a large element of pure liability associated with it. In the Last Chronicles things aren't that bad... yet.

CovenantJr wrote:Indeed. I think the Land's relative normality in the Third Chrons made the lack of health-sense more apparent. And also, in the Second Chrons, Linden was still trying to come to terms with Land, without fretting over details, why Covenant, in Covenant fashion, was more concerned woth his own role in the big picture.

Xar wrote:I'll add my two cents...

There is a fundamental difference between the situation in the Second and Last Chronicles: but first, let me say that, as Nerdanel correctly points out, the Sunbane's horror would be enough to overwhelm anyone (especially Covenant, given how lovely he remembered the Land to be) and would positively cry out for a solution. In front of the Sunbane's Desecration, would you have wondered why the people of the Land lost their health-sense, or would you try to find a way to remove the Sunbane?
Also, as far as Covenant can imagine (I wont mention Linden, because in the SC she still has to come to grips with the Land), the loss of health-sense in the people of the Land and the Sunbane are related: remove the latter, and you will restore the former. In his own case, he knows the reason why he doesn't have the health-sense (his leprosy, as had happened in TPTP, as well), so when Linden manifests her health-sense, he simply takes it for granted ("ok, the Sunbane has laid on the Land for millennia, and caused the people of the Land to lose their health-sense. I am a leper, so I can't have health-sense. Linden is neither from the Land nor a leper, so it makes sense that she gets it.").

But another reason, which is probably the most important, is that in the SC, they have no way to recover the health-sense, even if they wanted to. Wild magic is too dangerous to use for such an issue, even if Covenant had the required degree of control over it; the Staff of Law doesn't exist; there is no hurtloam or Lore left that could help them recover the health-sense. So, all in all, the loss of health-sense in the SC is unavoidable and unresolvable - except by destroying the Sunbane.

In the LC, we see Linden's loss of health-sense from her own point of view; obviously, given the importance her health-sense had had for her in the SC, and given that she had no reason to believe she wouldn't get it back when she would return to the Land, I can easily imagine how shocked she must have been when she realized she had lost it; also, remember that in the FC, Covenant's Unbelief prevented him from fully embracing the Land's gifts - including the health-sense - and that he only would obtain it with hurtloam, so the loss of it is not too much of a surprise for him; for Linden, who had been forced to embrace the health-sense, to a degree no person in the Land had ever been able to reach, it must have been much like discovering she's blind.
And obviously, later in the book she acquires power - not only the white gold ring she had, but also the Staff of Law; she had managed to destroy the Sunbane with such power, so it's only natural that, realizing she does have the power and the possibility to restore her health-sense, she would do so. On this note, Kevin's Dirt is a much subtler danger than the Sunbane - much less noticeable, and hence, perceived as much less of an immediate threat to deal with, therefore the loss of health-sense, in relation to the danger of the Land, seems more important.

Wayfriend wrote:Regarding the differences between the Second and Final Chronicles, I would say this:

First of all, health-sense seems to be a local phenomena. The people of the Land have it. The Land's Giants have it (which seems to make Coercri part of the Land). But the Brathair do not have it. The Home Giants don't have it. Wherever Kasreyn is from, he doesn't have it. SRD says "the first six books hint in various ways that Earthpower (while arguably universal) flows closer to the surface, or is more accessible, in the Land than elsewhere". So we can establish that health-sense is linked to the Land and to Earthpower.

In LFB, Covenant arrives from outside the Land. Hurtloam heals his leprosy; but it takes a subsequent bolt of lightning and wild magic for him to acquire the health-sense. Upon his return in TIW, the hurtloam heals his leprosy; the return of the health-sense may have been granted by the hurt-loam, or it may have been latent but unusable until Covenant's nerves were healed. But it is clear that healing his leprosy is not identical to restoring Covenant's health-sense. If you're from outside the Land, health-sense has to be granted to you, it is not native to you. Hence the bolt of lightning - Covenant is granted, in a flash, what he would acquire had he lived in the Land all along.

Now, the Bloodguard lived in the Land for thousands of years. This is enough, to me, for the Bloodguard to acquire health-sense. They've been living in the Land, absorbing the Earthpower. It would not be a ludicrous claim to say that the Haruchai, in the Westron Mountains, don't have the health-sense, before they become Bloodguard.

In the Second Chronicles, the people of the Land lose the health-sense. This happened "over generations" (SRD). If the health-sense is linked to the Earthpower which is 'closer to the surface' in the Land, then the Sunbane corruption could very well destroy the necessary balance. The Haruchai which come to the Land didn't have it to begin with, and there was no longer a way to acquire it in the Land, ergo, they lack health-sense. Ditto Covenant. (Linden, as dlb points out, is a special case.)

In the Final Chronicles, the people of the Land seem to have lost the health-sense again. Linden can restore it temporarilly with the Staff. Linden didn't have the Staff, and she didn't have the understanding of Law which the Staff provides, in the Second Chronicles. So she could not give health sense to anyone at that time. If she can now, it is justified by these conditions.

However, Kevin's Dirt is very different from the Sunbane. The health-sense doesn't seem to be lost, gone, absent. It seems to be blocked or suspended. This is evident in that the health-sense she restores is lost in a short time. Not 'over generations'. And it is only lost only when "in" the Dirt - health-sense 'sticks' above the Dirt or outside the Dirt. So the Dirt is covering up the health-sense, not eliminating it. (It is not like the Sunbane very much at all). Note that Sunder and Hollian did not regain any health-sense when they left the Sunbane - the health-sense was gone, not blocked. And the Haruchai Masters, who have lived in the Land, seem to have health-sense as well, although Linden must unblock it the same as anyone else.

In that light, in the Final Chronicles, Linden is only uncovering the health-sense which people already have; she is not creating health-sense from scratch, which she probably would have had to do under the Sunbane. Which is another reason that it didn't happen in the Second Chronicles.

Posted: **Wed Nov 30, 2005 6:07 pm**

One more observation:

The Sunbane did not affect Linden's percipience in the Second Chronicles. I attribute this to the fact that her's did not arise from the Land's Earthpower. However, in the Final Chronicles, Kevin's Dirt affects Linden's percipience as well as everyone elses health-sense. Again, as if the Dirt is more like a mask and less like an elimination of health-sense. It's like a fog that blocks all forms of vision, not just a particular one. Indeed, isn't that why it's called 'dirt'? ... because it fouls up everything?

And now a question:

Is there any explanation of how the Masters track down people who use Earthpower when they don't have any health-sense?

Posted: **Wed Nov 30, 2005 9:53 pm**

I think the Masters in fact have health-sense, just like Anele has. I think the explanation is that both are exceptionally Earthpowerful in their own way. Kevin's Dirt affects only people that are weak enough to be affected. This would point towards it being a mental-based phenomenon, in certain ways comparable to who can and who cannot be possessed by a Raver not wielding a fragment of the Illearth Stone. Of course Anele is possessed by various beings a lot of the time, but a lot of the time he's not. I think his madness creates holes into his defenses while he normally would be too powerful to be possessed. We have no idea if Anele would have his health-sense while vulnerable to possession, but Lord Foul certainly has no trouble finding hurtloam.

I think I may have said this before, but it just may be that if Kevin's Dirt becomes more powerful Anele's possession won't be limited to Anele anymore. The importance of the ground reminds me of the nasty effects of the first rays of the Sunbane and how standing on rock protected from them.

Anyway, I think there is proof enough that the Masters have health-sense in the present. In fact Linden even thinks at one point that Stave senses more than she does, and then Stave goes and senses the coming caesure before Linden even though both were expecting it. This is further proof for the theory that the Haruchai are too powerful to be affected by Kevin's Dirt, at least for now.

By the way, a potentially extremely significant detail is that while Thomas Covenant in the First Chronicles saw that the dead Waynhim had been a good creature, Linden in the Last Chronicles cannot see any such details about the Waynhim or the ur-viles. Continuity error or proof that the ur-viles had engineered Vain so that this would happen?

Posted: **Tue Dec 06, 2005 4:32 pm**

I've been meaning to follow up on the whole 2nd Chron Health Sense vs 3rd Chrons Health Sense issue, but I haven't had any free time, heh. But it's still bothering me, so I'll try to get caught up on the new posts soon.

Also, I was wondering, has there been any topics about the starting time of the caesures? I don't know if this is bothering anyone else, but I have a hard time buying SRD's explaination for how the caesures could have started thousands of years ago if Joan supposedly only got the ring a few hundred years ago (land time) and the caesures supposedly only go forward in time. I think this came up in the GI, but I don't remember liking SRD's answer. I don't want anyone to start any discussion on this subject here (in this topic), but I'm just wondering, is there a topic about this already? Or should I start one?-jay

Posted: **Tue Dec 06, 2005 4:52 pm**

It was brought up at around page 4/5 of the "When does Nom come back into the picture" topic, I think.

Posted: **Wed Dec 07, 2005 4:39 pm**

Some other clues.

When Foul leads Linden to the hurtloam, the hurtloam temporarilly restores her health-sense. Just as Linden can do with the staff. Hurtloam is Earthpower. The Staff of Law is Earthpower.

So it is an excercise of Earthpower to cast back the blindness of Kevin's Dirt.

Soon thereafter

In [u]The Runes of the Earth[/u] was wrote:As her pulse slowed, she found that she could feel Kevin's Dirt more clearly. It seemed to clog her lungs, depriving her not of oxygen but of some more subtle sustenance. Already it had begun to erode her health-sense, fraying her nerves towards blindness.

So Kevin's Dirt deprives people of some subtle substance.

So Kevin's Dirt restored it's hold on Linden. Then, she climbed into the mountains, and met the Ramen. Who could see. "Among these mountains, we stand above the ill which you name Kevin's Dirt. It does not hinder us because it does not touch us."

That night

While she slept, she regained her health-sense. Now life and Earthpower throbbed palpably beneath the surface of all she beheld.

Liand also gained health-sense. As if it was blocked for his entire life until now. "Linden," he called joyously, "is it not wondrous?"

From this we might conclude that it does not require Linden's use of the Staff to recind the hindrance of Kevin's Dirt. It can be done with hurtloam, and it can be done simply by removing oneself from Kevin's Dirt. And that the people of the Land have health-sense, but it is blocked.

As to whether or not the Masters are affected by Kevin's Dirt, I can find one cryptic clue. Anele speaks:

"You are blind," he responded scornfully. Kevin's Dirt blinds you. On the Watch you stood above it. It could not affect you. Now -" He smacked his lips in disdain or regret. "You are unaware of it because it blinds you. You do not see me. Only the Masters-"

Only the Masters- ... what? have health-sense?
And later in Revelstone Linden says to Galt, "Kevin's Dirt doesn't affect you."

So, somehow, the Masters remain free. Perhaps it is merely Haruchai constitution which protects them, as from the Sunbane, or Kasreyn's geas.

Posted: **Wed Dec 07, 2005 11:29 pm**

I'm not quite sure what you are arguing anymore, as your supporting arguments sound a lot like my supporting arguments. I think we are just interpreting same material in a different way.

In the Second Chronicles where we definitely know that the Sunbane was a corruption of Earthpower, the Sunbane had a limited geographical range that affected a certain volume of air, as is seen particularly well when our heroes travel towards Seareach and the Sunbane lasts only a part of the day. The volume of the original Sunbane reached higher than Kevin's Dirt, but as I have all along maintained that Kevin's Dirt is but an immature version of the real Sunbane 2.0, that need not matter. Uncorrupted Earthpower is in existence outside the Sunbane, which is why Linden's health-sense does not vanish in The One Tree and indeed is present in the Land itself. I think the situation is similar in the Last Chronicles. I don't believe Linden's health-sense somehow operates on a different principle than everyone else's (what would that principle be?) but the situation is just a question of relative innate power.

Average inhabitant of the Land < Linden < Haruchai

An interesting consequence of this line of reasoning is that the power level of Kevin's Dirt is greater than the original Sunbane's, which would mean that when the Sunbane 2.0 finally matures it will be formidable indeed. This fits right in with things getting amped up in sequels.

I think the hurtloam's capability to heal Kevin's Dirt is consistent with Kevin's Dirt being an effect of Earthpower. Even in the Land in the Second Chronicles there existed things of old pure Earthpower like aliantha. Like the Haruchai, some things are more resistant than other things. Both the hurtloam and the Staff of Law use Earthpower for their effects. The Staff is simply orders of magnitude more powerful and important in the great scheme of things. There is a quote somewhere about the Staff of Law being capable of wielding ALL the Earthpower and being limited only by its wielder, which sounds a lot like the relationship between white gold and wild magic. (Potential plot point: If something happens to sap the Earthpower in a serious way, the Staff of Law could end up becoming noticeably weaker or even powerless.)

Additionally, the state of the Elohim, who are Earthpower incarnate, could mean that the Earthpower is not completely healthy. There is a Lord Foul quote indicating that this might be the case but it's getting (gotten) very late and I can't seem to find it.

Posted: **Thu Dec 08, 2005 3:13 pm**

Nerdanel wrote:I'm not quite sure what you are arguing anymore

Why do you think I am arguing?

Posted: **Thu Dec 08, 2005 5:37 pm**

I meant "argue" in the sense of "present an argument for". I think you were doing that and not just talking about random things of interest?

Posted: **Thu Dec 08, 2005 9:27 pm**

EDIT: what i wrote was just stupid and complete nonsense.thankyou and goodnight.

Posted: **Wed Feb 22, 2006 6:01 pm**

I found a quote from TWL.

Akkasri wrote:Also with your power, perhaps still more of the Sunbane may be consumed. Perhaps you may exert a mastery over the region around Revelstone, freeing it from the Sunbane. This is our hope. As you wielded more power, the Sunbane would grow weaker, permitting the expansion of your mastery, spreading safety farther out into the Land. Thus the work of generations might be compressed into one lifetime.

It is a brave vision, Halfhand, worthy of any man or woman. A great saving of life and Land. For that reason Gibbon na-Mhoram rescinded the command of your death.

But as you remember, when the Clave "fought" the Sunbane they were actually making it more powerful and Gibbon was a Raver. I think Lord Foul's Plan A was to make Covenant join the Clave and drive the Sunbane to unimagined heights, but various events made that plan unworkable as the Clave's evil wasn't hidden to a sufficient degree.

Now in the Last Chronicles I think Lord Foul has resorted to the same basic principle again but done it properly this time. Linden thinks travelling to the past to fetch the Staff of Law was her own idea (when Esmer presented it to her on a silver platter) and now she's going to blast away at Kevin's Dirt just on principle when she doesn't have anything better to do. With the amount of Earthpower she can channel, the Sunbane 2.0 could balloon quickly.

Posted: **Wed Feb 22, 2006 6:19 pm**

I think Foul's Plan A was to lure Covenant into Revelstone and get him to willingly submit to the Soothtell. The Clave could not reveal themselves until this occurred. Any plan to fight the Sunbane was merely a ruse to fool Covenant; any plan to enlist Covenant's aid was as much of one.

Posted: **Wed Feb 22, 2006 6:44 pm**

I think it would have been a plan very like Lord Foul to have Covenant destroy what he loved by fighting the Sunbane and inadvertently making the Sunbane take over the entire Earth. When he finally discovered the truth, it would have made for some fine despair for him.

The plan might have worked without Linden and Vain, neither of whom was anticipated by Lord Foul. Note that Gibbon only decides that there should be a Soothtell when Covenant has discovered the dungeons of Revelstone and all hope of getting him to see the Clave's point of view has failed.