Sunbane 2.0

[Nerdanel]

(This subject has been discussed already, but I think this deserves its own thread so that various people's arguments are not scattered all over the place. I will also add more arguments to make a more complete and coherent case for my view.)

Idenfying Our Bane

There is another white gold ring. The Staff of Law has been remade and refound. The Illearth Stone is back. Thomas Covenant seems to be gradually gaining the names of all the old High Lords. The Demondim have returned. ... I think the Sunbane might not be as dead and buried as it seems to be either.

The natural response to this is to ask where's that Sunbane then? We sure don't remember seeing any unnatural cycles of desert/rain/pestilence/fertility and the sun has been the right color all along. My answer is that this version of the Sunbane is not yet at its full strength, but we are seeing it all right. I think that's deep down what the highly mysterious substance called Kevin's Dirt is.

The short answer is that, yes, it's an effect of the Sunbane, which is after all a corruption of Earthpower (the "energy" that enables health-sense) rather than of the actual sun, and which must in the beginning have been developed by small increments, changes that took generations to affect the people of the Land.

Kevin's Dirt lies shroud-like above the Land just like the Sunbane did.

Another thing strangely reminescent of the Sunbane is Anele's possession. The only way to avoid being warped by the first rays of the sun was to stand on rock. The only way for Anele to avoid being possessed by the likes of Lord Foul is to stand on rock. It appears that it is much easier to make soil serve evil than stone. Perhaps this is because soil consists of small, weak particles unlike big rocks.

I think the new Sunbane will not be identical to the old one, although at the moment it is hard to say exactly what it will be like. For example, it might entail opening to possession everyone, not just sensitive special people like Anele. I think Anele's Earthpowerfulness and a long time spent learning to open his mind made him especially vulnerable, but I think this could be a difference of degree, not kind. Even Linden with her zero experience thought she sensed the stone talking even though she didn't understand.

The Staff of Law Connection

As for what could have caused a new Sunbane, I think the problem is that Linden's new Staff of Law is flawed. If we take it that the Staff protects the Law as it stands, the Sunbane might not be as counter to the Law as one might expect, since Linden created the Staff while the Sunbane was still in force.

Also, I think she had flawed raw materials in the form of Findail. The shadow over Elohim can be connected to the Sunbane, and I think we can say Findail had his part of that shadow. For example, Vain was utterly and totally black while Findail was ...sort of whitish. I think the yellow shade of Kevin's Dirt can be connected to Findail's ivory color, which is a yellowish shade of white. I think Kevin's Dirt came to the Staff as a visible impurity in Findail that made him not be the shining white that we would expect of Vain's opposite.

The fact that Linden is affected by Kevin's Dirt while she was unaffected by its Sunbane equivalent might be taken to mean that Kevin's Dirt is more in tune with her, as befits its creator.

The Staff of Law clears away Kevin's Dirt very easily, but that fits splendidly with it causing the Dirt. I think Linden is being like the Clave who thought that they were fighting against the Sunbane with their Banefire when they were actually feeding the Sunbane. SRD put a little repeat lesson on this subject in Runes in the form of Linden healing the Staff-damaged Waynhim, so we should not be surprised to see this datum turn out important.

Timing Concerns

It took the Sunbane thousands of years to mature in the absence of a Staff of Law, but we could still have expected a more finished Sunbane to be visible this time. After all, if I am correct, this Sunbane got a headstart over the old one.

My theory to explain this is that the new Sunbane develops very slowly without being driven by a Staff of Law since this time Lord Foul is not causing Kevin's Dirt personally. (He would gladly take the credit if he was.) So this time the absence/nonuse of the Staff could actually have protected against the Sunbane. It remains to be seen how much Linden's actions accelerate things or if perhaps Linden & co. will time-travel to the future at some point.

I think if there had been runes of power carved in the new Staff of Law it might not have generated a Sunbane, but you save the world with the Staff you have, not the Staff you don't even know to wish you had.

[Avatar]

While I agree with the possibility of the shadow on the Elohim affecting Findail, I notice that, here and there, you put a lot of emphasis on Findail's colour, making note of the fact that it was described as "ivory."

While I'll certainly agree that that is not "white" per se, wasn't Vain frequently described as "ebon" and ebony"? And isn't the usually accepted opposite of ebony considered ivory?

--Avatar

[Nerdanel]

Maybe you are right, but I seem to remember some odd phrasings that put a little too much emphasis on the tint of Findail's exact shade. I would need to comb through the text but I don't have the earlier books with me right now.

I'm a visual person first and foremost and therefore didn't think of the ebony/ivory thing. But the fact is, ebony and ivory are not really opposites in color. Ebony/newfallen snow for example would be a much better example.

[Avatar]

Hmm, perhaps. I'm not a visual person in the slightest, so the word/association of ebony/ivory is what comes to mind first.

Also the fact that ebony is a wood, and therefore not the pitch-black of tar. Even polished, a hint of brown is discernable.

Like you though, I'd have to check the book, 'cause I'm sure Vain is also described as being purely black.

--A

[Nerdanel]

I think ebony is commonly referred to as the blackest black, but I like many other people has never seen anything made of ebony in real life, so mental images can shift. Also, I suppose varnishing can change the color of the wood in this case also.

"Skin white as snow, lips red as blood, hair black as ebony..." SRD has said multiple times that he sees the world in words, a condition which I find impossible to imagine, but at least Snow White has a word-based example for a more-white complement to ebony.

[Avatar]

Ebony

Not having any "pictures" in my head, and as a result, "seeing" the world in words myself, (Check out the 'Minds Eye" topic in the Close if you like), it's easy for me to understand.

The Pictures are examples of the different "shades" of ebony that are possible.

As I said though, I'm sure Vain does get described as "pitch"-black or something similar as well. (Somebody is going to have to check. )

--A

[Nerdanel]

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ebony

Ebony heartwood is one of the most intensely black woods known...

So the core of an ebony tree would be black and an area nearer to the surface would be brown-striped like in some of those pictures. Vain sounds like his ebony color is of the famous heartwood shade.

[Avatar]

Aha, could be.

--A

[finn]

I have several pieces of work in ebony from the Solomon Islands, it is on first examination black to all intents, however upon closer inspection the black heartwood is in fact dark brown with striations which can be seen under more intense light. The lighter wood known as Queen Ebony is more chocolate coloured and again striped with darker patches of deep brown.

The comparison of ebony to black and ivory to white is as close as needs be in describing the opposites based upon the colours of two natural materials. They are often paired as they were the constituents of the black and white keys of a piano (even before Stevie Wonder and Paul McCartney noticed it).

Black and White are not colours, they are shades. Black is a very dark shade of a colour, ie brown/ebony, or dark green as in a blackboard. White is the absence of intensity in a colour. White paper, even bleached, will still come up as a very pale cream or yellow under scrutiny.

Given that, I don't think the supposition that ivory is not as white as ebony is black, plays out its symbolism on Findail or Vain being flawed. That may well be the case, but I don't think the colour (or lack thereof) is at all related to it.

[Nerdanel]

I wonder if SRD has ever seen ebony and if he did, did he look it closely. My memory also seems to agree with Avatar's memory that Vain was also described as pitch-black and not just ebony. I really wish I had those pirated electronic versions of the books I have been hearing about. The room I rent has no space for a bookshelf and as a consequence I keep most of my books at my parents. Additionally, electronic texts are unparalled as reference materials due to the ability to search efficiently within the text. It's only the normal reading part which has usability problems.

By the way, I don't get why some people insist black and white are not colors. In my opinion color is the chromatic property an object must have unless it is perfectly transparent, so for example dark green and light green and yellowish green are different colors while they could also be said to be hues of the ideal green.

It is perfectly possible to get an even mix of the three main colors. White or black or gray produced in such a way would not be tinted to any primary or secondary color. I think it would be pointlessly complicated to insist none of such cases has any color.

(Disclaimer: I studied art on a language other than English.)

[matrixman]

As for what could have caused a new Sunbane, I think the problem is that Linden's new Staff of Law is flawed. If we take it that the Staff protects the Law as it stands, the Sunbane might not be as counter to the Law as one might expect, since Linden created the Staff while the Sunbane was still in force.

My understanding was that there's nothing wrong with the new Staff, according to what SRD has said in the GI. Of course, he might not be telling the whole truth.

Your point about the Staff protecting the Law as it stands: I had assumed that too at the end of WGW--but then in the GI, SRD seemed to be saying that the new Staff (through Linden) actually created a new set of rules (Law 2.0, heh) that supercedes the old Law. Unless I, um, misunderstood him, which wouldn't be the first time...

[Nerdanel]

I suspect that the Law 2.0 might be basically the Law 1.0 with "feature enhancements" ("It's not a bug! It's a feature!") by people like Elena and Lord Foul and some unexpected quirks coming from Vain 0.99 Beta.

Now. The Staff of Law was created as a means to wield the energy of Earthpower safely--i.e. without violating the various constraints of Law. But because this is magic rather than technology (because it deals in symbolic unities rather than in discrete mechanisms), the Staff cannot be inherently separate from the forces and rules which it exerts. It's not a light switch, essentially distinct from the flow of electricity which it enables. In a certain sense, the Staff *is* both Law and Earthpower, just as white gold *is* wild magic. In fantasy, in magic, the tool cannot be distinguished from what the tool does.

So. Even though the Staff was never essential to the original existence of either Law or Earthpower, the simple fact of its creation means that it participates in both, and can therefore: a) strengthen both, or b) weaken both (by being destroyed). So yes, the destruction of the original Staff weakened the structure of Law.

But. This is does *not* imply that Linden's creation of a new Staff *automatically* restores the structure of Law to its original form. A tool has to be used to be effective; and the person using the tool has to know what he/she is doing. Linden, and then Sunder and Hollian, clearly have the spirit and the heart to use the Staff effectively; but they don't necessarily have the lore, the knowledge, to accomplish everything that the Staff is capable of doing. (The absence of runes on the new Staff is not an accident.) Also the new Staff is profoundly different than Berek's original creation. It was formed, not from the wood of the One Tree, but from one sentient (Findail) and one quasi-sentient (Vain) being, each of whose nature affects the inherent qualities of both the new Staff and what the new Staff can do. (And then there's the interesting question of whether Sunder and Hollian would actually *want* to heal the broken Law of Life, since by doing so they might undo themselves.) And in addition: when the new Staff was created, it became an inherent participant in both Law and Earthpower, just as Berek's did; BUT the *condition* of Law and Earthpower when Linden created her Staff was different than it was when Berek created his; and therefore the *condition* of the new Staff is also different.

So. The creation of the new Staff did not *in itself* restore the broken Laws of Death and Life. Presumably it *could*. If the right wielder used it in the right way. But that hasn't happened yet.

"Condition", a word that can mask so much. I think the Sunbane would have been part of the "condition" when Linden created the new Staff of Law. I think healing the Sunbane helped things and affected the Staff positively, but was it enough? I don't think so.

[matrixman]

I suspect that the Law 2.0 might be basically the Law 1.0 with "feature enhancements" ("It's not a bug! It's a feature!") by people like Elena and Lord Foul and some unexpected quirks coming from Vain 0.99 Beta.

"It's not a bug! It's a feature!"

[Avatar]

I don't think the supposition that ivory is not as white as ebony is black, plays out its symbolism on Findail or Vain being flawed. That may well be the case, but I don't think the colour (or lack thereof) is at all related to it.

Agreed. In fact, that was my only point.

--A

[IrrationalSanity]

Linden essentially re-wrote the law with her health-sense as she was absorbing and redistributing the Sunbane, so any flaws would be as much due to her own imperfections as those of Vain and Findail.

[matrixman]

Linden essentially re-wrote the law with her health-sense as she was absorbing and redistributing the Sunbane, so any flaws would be as much due to her own imperfections as those of Vain and Findail.

Yes, I see it that way, too.

[Nerdanel]

Gradual Interview comes again to provide clarity!

Linden has re-made the Staff of Law, not the Law itself, and certainly not the Land. A good healer doesn't "re-make" his/her patients: s/he helps restore those patients to a state which should have been theirs all along (health). In addition, she didn't create Vain, and has no control over the energy which Findail supplies; so she could not "re-make" the Land in "her own image" even if she wanted to (which I sincerely doubt).

So it sounds like Linden's personality quirks didn't matter much to the new Staff of Law... but Vain and Findail's role was specifically mentioned. Of course we cannot expect SRD to reveal his cards, but for the moment my theory of a second, "improved" Sunbane fits well with this latest comment as well as other evidence.

[finn]

It's a theory Nerdanel but one I cannot see playing out. Re-jigging the Sunbane would seem to be going backwards plot-wise and I get the feeling that the Last Chronicles will be played out on a bigger stage than what we consider 'The land'.

It's my suspicion that Foul's role in this series will be different, perhaps radically so, maybe marginalised and struggling for attention or even playing for the other side against some other threat. I also feel that Foul needs to be explained more in terms of his being and substance and where he comes from/is going to, motivations etc.

It's this that make SRD such a delight for me, he has made Foul a bit more than just a generic baddie and I think that angle has loads of room to astonish. That's what SRD does, he suprises, delights and astonishes us with twists and turns; a revisit to the Sunbane would probably not do that for me.

That's my take, but it's only theory's after all, unlike theories on colour which despite opinion are what they are and remain so even if some have seen fit to change the way we spell the word!

[matrixman]

I'm a big fan of the GI, but sometimes I think SRD's replies have made me more confused about Chronicles matters rather than less. Or maybe the relationship between Law and Earthpower and the Elohim is just inherently confusing.

[Nerdanel]

I think with the Demondim coming back and everything else, we might indeed be in for a blast from the past in several ways. Some comments from SRD also support this.

Don't mistake me, I very much don't think we'll see a Sunbane that is a copy of the Second Chronicles. I think we will see Sunbane from Findail + dark Demondim-lore from Vain form something never seen before and so horrible it dwarfs the original Sunbane. My top theory is that the sun will not be shaded into four colors but will be obscured entirely in darkness reminescent of the dark wisps that are seen hanging around the Demondim and the Mahdoubt (who I think could also be a Demondim) in addition to other features like allowing people to be possessed if they do not stand on rock.