Kevin's Watch

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these guys?

Odin kicks their ass.

I think the answer can depend a lot on what accessories are allowed. For example, does Sauron have his Ring and does Lord Foul have the Illearth Stone?

Anyway, I think Lord Foul will win against Sauron if only because the laws of magic are different in their universes. Lord Foul is capable of dealing out destructive blasts of magic which Sauron will be unable to replicate effectively. This is very significant, since both Dark Lords should be immune to each other's mental magics. Sauron would be forced to fighting in melee, which is far from his strongest suit. If armies are allowed Sauron is in a better situation with his superior grasp of strategy, but I think Lord Foul would still win eventually. (In the case in which Lord Foul has white gold, the battle will be over in his favor in under a minute, just like the universe.)

Satan is overall amazingly ineffective and has only kept his position because his supposed enemy likes to keep him around and because certain people like to scare people with him, therefore building up his reputation and blaming every random bad thing on him. Tell me, how many Sunbanes has Satan created? In a real fight I think Satan would have no chance.

Nerdanel wrote: Satan is overall amazingly ineffective and has only kept his position because his supposed enemy likes to keep him around and because certain people like to scare people with him, therefore building up his reputation and blaming every random bad thing on him. Tell me, how many Sunbanes has Satan created? In a real fight I think Satan would have no chance.

That what I was thinking.
Foul and Sauron are builders and wielders of great physical powers.
Satan? He tempts Man to do bad things. big whoop!
Foul and Sauron *enslave* Man and work to conqure and/or destroy the whole world.

Satan relies on man to do the bad things. he tempts, but the person has to do the actual work. the other gather up big armies.

sgtnull wrote:well we know Satan loses in the end.
as does Sauron.
and Lord Foul.

Satan is defeated by the ressurected Christ.
Sauron by a furry hobbit.
Foul by an impotent leper.

going by strength of schedule, Satan.

That is just not true that Sauron is defeated simply by a furry hobbit the way Foul is defeated by an "impotent leper"

If you're gonna make these kind of comparisons between the protaganist and the antagonist . . .

Then

Satan is to Jesus or Muhammad (or whatever Manifestation of God floats your boat)

as

Sauron is to (Frodo, Gollum, and Samwise)

as

Lord Foul is to (Thomas Covenant Unbeliever)

(Thomas Covenant is definitely Frodo, Gollum and Samwise all rolled up into one . . . as protaganists)
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Back to the original question about which Villan would win in a death match,

given that we should consider where there territories are in these different universes . . .

Would . . . .

Would Lord Foul and Satan fair much at all in the land of Mordor?

Would Satan and Sauron be anything worth a damn in Foul's Creche . . .?

Would Sauron and Lord Foul last worth a damn in some horrible place like say? Oh where is Satan most prominent in the world? . . . . For argument's sake in my opinion let's say "Iraq", or what's left of New Orleans, or . . . possibly some other horribly war torn country in the world coveted for some non-renewable resource like the oil there, yet extremely unsafe and evil. . . . . ?

Satan has no body of his own.

supposedly, Sauron has a body but lost it and can only regain it with the ring of power

Lord Foul has a body, as we all know.

Lord Foul has a taste for turning your will against you (like the paradox of white gold). Sauron likes to tempt people--as does Satan (since everyone was tempted by the ring including the Elves)

but seeing as though Satan cannot fight physically and Sauron likes to just watch from a distance, i'd put my money on the Despiser. Nobody can kill Despite.

Foul has the Staff, White Gold, Illearth Stone, Ravers. all these tools at his disposal.

Sauron has the ring, anything else?

Satan has no power items.

Oh, except for the eternal legions of demons. And the Satan Has No Power thing: not true. Tepmtation can be taken many ways. There's the wussy, garden variety, and then there's the sense-binding, uber-controlling kind. That second one is supposedly how demons trick their summoners into reaching outside the circle to answer the telephone.

So, either my devil man (and I'm playing the devil's advocate, here, in case you hadn't noticed. I dig the horns) tortures Foul and Sauron with tacky Celine Dion ringtones, or he tricks them into doing something classically stupid, like handing over a bunch of rings or a certain big green glowy rock. Either could lead to destruction. (The way she says "love" makes me want to rip off my ears. )

Now, if Foul has his arsenal, he'd only be at more risk for tricksiness. Even his Ravers would betray him, and and who better to take them under his wing than Satan?

Same for Sauron. How do you think suicidal nut cults do it? Satan is the father of such cults, even if it wasn't the way Anton LeVay (Rest in Splendor, Bro) painted it. Armies? Pah! Satan could easily send his demons to possess them all, or destroy them, or make them do the infamous "banana dance" if he wanted.

Of course, as others have said, location, location. For my theory to work, Satan would have to be able to communicate with his own legions, and in the Land or Mordor, this is questionable.

Oh, and if it gets down to hand to hand combat, I call Mud-wrestling, cuz mud is cool.

lake of fire for the wrasslin'

Gotta have a ref,I nominate Galactus.

sgtnull wrote:well we know Satan loses in the end.
as does Sauron.
and Lord Foul.

Satan is defeated by the ressurected Christ.
Sauron by a furry hobbit.
Foul by an impotent leper.

going by strength of schedule, Satan.

OMG this is so funny!

But you forgot one thing...
If Foul dies, Satan dies too. He can't live without his heart.


Eh?


Ehhhhh?

dlb: thanks.

somberlain: so Sauron wins in your book?

I think that Sauron would be defeated by either Satan or Foul. In his LOTR state he's just a big eye, which just makes people feel afraid when it looks at them (and hell, one of Foul's servants can do that with a fraction of Foul's power). Then even when he was a warrior it was only his ring that kept him alive. Since that goes on the end of his finger, it's a bit of a weak point. He's lose.

I'm going to assume that they're not using armies, because the only one that ever gets defeated in a war is Sauron himself.

Which'd leave Satan and Foul. I just think they'd have to call it a tie.


Well... to be honest I hadn't really thought about it. I just wanted to pun on Satansheart

As someone noted earlier, Sauron was Morgoth's lieutenant. I think that the better question here is not Sauron - Foul - Satan, but Morgoth - Foul - Satan.

Our knowledge of the Land's cosmology could fit into a thimble. Our knowledge of Middle-Earth's and our own world's "Christian" cosmology could fill a few swimming pools. (That is, if you've read The Silmarillion and other works, with regard to Middle Earth's cosmology.)

Morgoth vs Satan - That's a draw. One is modeled after the other, and both of their eventual defeats came at the hands of those equal to them.

Morgoth or Satan vs. Lord Foul - The Creator himself imprisoned Foul. So it's difficult to measure his relative strength. As far as we know, Foul didn't have contemporaries, like Michael the Archangel or Manwe. IF Fould had the white gold, it would serve him only in his world. That would be an unfair advantage. If Morgoth had the Silmarils, they would enhance his power only in Middle Earth. So you have to take all three and put them somewhere neutral.

So who wins? I can think of two possibilities.

One would be like Ali/Frazier. One would win one fight, the other the next, and so on and so on.

Or you could look at it this way. Morgoth and Foul are essentially shadows of Satan (the original Dark Lord). A shadow can't defeat that which stands between it and the sun. Satan, then, wins hands down every time.

well thought out burgs.

and I believe that the ravers could defeat Sauron.

Thanks Sgtnull - but I don't see the Ravers beating Sauron. To me (at least) the Ravers are the equivalent of the Nazgul, although that is certainly open to debate. The Ravers were rapacious spirits. The Nazgul were men (albeit Numenorean men, so that made them "special"). Most likely, the Ravers are more than the Nazgul, but Sauron isn't just any old lackey. He's Morgoth's second in command, and he disrupted an entire world with his malice and power. It took only the combined might of Elves and Men (considerable forces) to defeat him, and then, it was only luck that cut the One Ring off his finger.

Say that Sauron never created the One Ring. He created the ring solely for the purpose of subjugating the most powerful of all the races. We don't know how he fared with the dwarves, but he did a number on the Numenorians who should have known better.

He poured all of his hatred and malice and a great deal of his soul and power into that ring to enable him to do master such people. He succeeded with men, but failed with elves, and that was probably his greatest mistake. He should have known that the elves would catch on to him the moment he put the ring on and hidden their own rings.

Remember who Sauron is. He is a contemporary of Gandalf, Saruman, the Balrogs (who Morgoth twisted) - he belongs to the Maiar, and they possess great power.

If Sauron had his ring, which made him complete, I think the Ravers would have cowered beneath him. While he may not stand as tall as Foul, he is no simple adversary. Without his ring - if he had never made it - he is still more than a match for the Ravers because had he not crafted the ring, he would have been "whole".

Now, the Ravers vs. the Nazgul - that's an interesting discussion, especially remembering that Nom rendered a Raver, and Gandalf held off all nine Nazgul, by himself, at Weathertop.[/i]

depends one who the ravers possessed? when in a giant, I would like to see that battle. a raver in a wizard?

I don't think a giant would make much difference. The Nazgul could hop on the pterodactyls and fly around knocking the giant in the head with their maces or whatnot.

And the wizard - that depends. Allanon? Ha! He's a pussy. They could possess him, but there wouldn't be much point. Gandalf? They couldn't get inside of him. *Maybe* Saruman, but it took the immense will of Sauron to change him. I don't think a Raver possesses that (IMHO).

I'm not sure there's anything/one powerful enough that a Raver could possess - simply because the power it would take would preclude their ability to do so.

Could a Raver even possess a Lord? I don't recall such a thing happening. If that's not possible, then they're in trouble.

i'll concede then.