Kevin's Watch

And next you will tell me how the spatial position and speed of some hydrogen molecule has determined that I will trip over the cat that chooses that particular moment to twine itself through my legs?

I fail to see how an elementary particle during the big bang can have an effect on whether I will eat beef or lamb tonight.

--A

I just wrote a whole long post and deleted by mistake

Time to start again.

Right, as far as the possibility of affecting everything we do by choice, it isn't so much that I disagree, only that I think it is impossible to make informed choices about everything. We don't know what the outcomes wil be as a result of certain actions and we don't know what they may have been otherwise so I guess we never know! With the Medium though, I was told of an outcome which I endeavoured to make true, which then resulted in a very different outcome from the one I expected. I do think I misinterpreted that reading as what she said came true, just not with the person I consciously thought of. Perhaps subconsciously I was thinking of that person? Although that particular reading appeared ambiguous it may have been because I was so hellbent on the outcome I thought I wanted I was blind to all else.

As far as luck and chance go, here is an extract from an interview with Dr Richard Wiseman, author of a book about luck:

Mike Carruthers:
There's a very important distinction between luck and chance. Chance events are those over which we have no control, like winning or losing the lottery.

Dr. Richard Wiseman:
But luck is different. I think luck in life; you know who we meet or whether we're in the right place at the right time. I think those are very much under our control.

It seems as though according to him, luck isn't so much luck, as a result of our choices, which to me, kind of goes against what I think of as luck. He goes on to stress the importance of positive thinking on luck and self-fulfilling prohecies.
Now I'm really confused!

Don't you just hate it when that happens?

KAY1 wrote:as far as the possibility of affecting everything we do by choice, it isn't so much that I disagree, only that I think it is impossible to make informed choices about everything. We don't know what the outcomes wil be as a result of certain actions and we don't know what they may have been otherwise so I guess we never know!

It certainly is impossible to make informed choices about everything, no matter how hard we try. But just because we can't know in advance what the outcomes will be, (sometimes I think that's a good thing, and sometimes not), doesn't mean that they were in any way chosen for you.

Even if you didn't know what you were doing, you were still doing it, if you know what I mean. When I say we can control what happens to us, perhaps the disclaimer "to a large extent" would fit well in there. The things we don't expect, or don't think we want, are still part of the things that our actions cause. Just because you didn't know that you would stub your toe if you took a step at that instant, it was still you taking the step.

KAY1 wrote:I do think I misinterpreted that reading as what she said came true, just not with the person I consciously thought of. Perhaps subconsciously I was thinking of that person? Although that particular reading appeared ambiguous it may have been because I was so hellbent on the outcome I thought I wanted I was blind to all else.

And there you probably touch on an important point...see, when I read what you'd been told, before you even got to the part about what happened in the end, or even what you thought she meant, I assumed it was the original partner. The key word that gave it away to me was "reconciliation." Of course, I don't know if you needed to reconcile with the new partner, but in the context, it was the old one that made sense.

You didn't want to reconcile with your old partner. So you told yourself she meant the new one. Perhaps you even actually knew what she really meant, and perhaps that was really what you, unknowing, wanted. So even though you thought your actions were contrary to that possibility, you may have been working yourself to achieve the goal you actually wanted.

What was the reason? Did the universe conspire to reunite you for your own good? Or did you actually manage it yourself, in spite of your intentions?

KAY1 wrote:As far as luck and chance go, here is an extract from an interview with Dr Richard Wiseman, author of a book about luck:

Mike Carruthers:
There's a very important distinction between luck and chance. Chance events are those over which we have no control, like winning or losing the lottery.

Dr. Richard Wiseman:
But luck is different. I think luck in life; you know who we meet or whether we're in the right place at the right time. I think those are very much under our control.

It seems as though according to him, luck isn't so much luck, as a result of our choices, which to me, kind of goes against what I think of as luck. He goes on to stress the importance of positive thinking on luck and self-fulfilling prohecies.
Now I'm really confused!

I believe in positive thinking, and I believe in self-fulfilling prophecies too. Not because I think that there is a reason that things happen though, but because I believe that the mind is an awesome instrument, however ineptly we tend to use it.

To me, who sees luck as something outside of our actual choices (though perhaps not our wishes), I agree with you. Luck and chance are almost the same thing. I do see his distinction as well though...all the positive thinking in the world isn't going to win you the lottery.

--A

Yes I do hate it I missed out LOADS of what I originally said lol. I am also so fickle I change my mind about things quickly

As far as what the Medium said, I had recently stopped seeing the new guy as well. The whole situation was very complicated, basically the old relationship wasnt going anywhere and when the new one presented itself I saw it as an opportunity to break free from the old, as well as liking the new guy obviously. Perhaps a bit of a cop out really, though I think the old one may have been finished anyway, it is just always easier with someone or thing to take your mind off it!

It wasn't so much I didn't want the old relationship to work, just that I felt I had burned my bridges and that it just wasn't going to work no matter what I wanted to I was focussed on staying away from it at all cost!

Whether it was my actions or the universe that ultimately achieved the final outcome I have no idea. That is where the question of what you really believe comes in isn't it?

The problem with luck and positive thinking is that you can tell yourself as much as you want that you are thinking positively but your subconscious is all knowing and you can't lie to it!

Avatar wrote:And next you will tell me how the spatial position and speed of some hydrogen molecule has determined that I will trip over the cat that chooses that particular moment to twine itself through my legs?

I am answering with the tools that have been given to me, and from those tools, the answer to your question is yes.

I don't think there is a "reason", other that everything was set in motion and proceeded from there. What other forced would you imply other that those present at the birth of the universe?

IOW, I think that everything was fixed from day one, but no one would ever have been able to see, what would happen. Like Loremaster says, it's an huge number of variables. To huge for anyone to fathom.

How can you, if you are not religious (or understand quantum theory), think that it is different?

Speaking of quantum theory, I really should try to understand it some day, but I fear that it is beyond my rapidly ageing brain.

Oh nonsense Prebe. And yes, I find it fascinating. The little I've read about it has been astounding, and I have no doubt that since then, even more interesting things have been posited.

You see, (and this neatly brings Kay's comments about action and the universe, as well as what you believe, into the post ), the fact that it is all made up of variables is my exact point.

What's a variable? Something unknown til it happens, right? Something that could be either one thing/action/event/outcome or another. Right?

In fact, to put it perhaps inelegantly, it's a choice. And the variable is probably depndant on other variables. Other choices. Nothing happens in a vacuum.

See, I'm thinking less of physical reasons, (causes) than I am of intangible ones. If there is a variable, the chance that something can go either way, (think of that cat you mentioned earlier Prebe), then the universe has incorporated both possibilities. It doesn't matter to the universe which way the cat goes. If it's alive, or if it's dead.

Each is possible, so no matter which happens, each was meant to be. In a sense, yes, whatever happens happens for a reason. But in the greater sense, if the exact opposite had happened, it too would have happened for a reason.

If Kay (say, did the reader know anything about your current situation at the time?) had ended up with the new guy, that would have been just as much meant to be.

You see Kay, when somebody says to me, "It was meant to be," my immediate instinct is to ask "Who by?"

--A

Well that did nothing to make things any clearer in my mind
I agree that the universe probably has incorporated the millions and billions of different possibilities which is where some people would wander into the murky realm of alternate realities etc but I have enough trouble dealing with this one so I don't think I'l go there.

I see what you mean about if I had ended up with the new guy that would have been meant to be, or at least seemed that way. No she didn't know my situation at the time, she made a point of telling me not to say anything. The thing that also freaked me out about the whole thing(other than the timescale she suggested and that prediction) there were certain things she said to me that noone else could have known, which is what has maybe made me stray more to the believing things are meant to happen side.


I've always hedged my bets anyway and kept my mind open to the possibilty there is some force or something influencing things and also that there is not. As we are the Watch it would be appropriate to quote Lord Mhoram in I think TPTP when someone asked him about the presence, or lack thereof of a Creator and Mhoram said something like if the Creator exists then there is hope of some Divine intervention or influence somehow and if there is not, then we make the meaning of our own lives and who is there to reproach us for our actions?

I would never completely reject the idea of some power or force in the universe which may influence events, but I would also never wholly accept the idea and base my life around the principle that I should justsit back and allow things to unfold. Maybe I am just stubborn.

How specific were those certain things?

I strongly suspect that we make the meaning for our own lives, and that there is nobody to reproach us but ourselves.

And indeed, that is exactly where people wander into the interesting, although ultimately unprovable, idea of alterate realities and multiple universes. (A concept explored in quantum theory as well.)

Kay wrote:I see what you mean about if I had ended up with the new guy that would have been meant to be, or at least seemed that way.

Exactly. And the word I emphasised in quoting you is sorta my real point. It seems that way.

It's a lovely idea, but we look for meaning. We need meaning. We are quite capable of creating that meaning, even out of nothing if necessary.

The important thing to remember of course is that either way, it doesn't detract from the positive nature of whatever happened. But because we want things to be true, it seems to have been meant. When in fact, if the opposite had happened through your or his choices, that would have appeared to have been "meant" as well.

Personally, I never reject the idea that some force might control events, but I find it highly, highly unlikely. In the sense of a "master-plan" at least.

--A

Oh they were very very specific believe me! One of the things she mentioned was about a dodgy window I had in my flat and the only 2 people who knew were me and my flatmate. She also then said a couple of things that only my grandmother knew and they weren't things that were necessarily true such as favourite colour, they were what my gran always thought were true about me in her own personal opinion.

Even though I consider myself fairly spiritual I like things to be proven to me before I accept them, I am a bit of a doubting Thomas I guess you could say (I wonder if that is where SRD came up with TC's name, though I think he said not). So when she said these specific things it felt like something just clicked.

I recently read something about Mediums etc and how it could be that they don't 'contact the dead' but rather pick up our own subconscious thoughts, which would actually explain what happened at the reading funnily enough because of course only I knew the true details of what the Medium told me. Maybe I unconsciously provided the information that would confirm she was 'above board'.

I think the subject of alternate realities is fascinating but I am trying to avoid a headache which is why I am not getting into it lol.

I think you are right we do need meaning. To be honest though, what is life without meaning? Whether we get that meaning from thinking there is a 'higher power' or from something else, we all need something.
I do also believe though that whether there is anything else out there, we are ultimately responsible for our own choices (even though we cant always forsee the result) and would not try and assign blame saying i cuoldnt escape what destiny had in store for me. See I am a very conflicted person, I think I think too much

KAY1 wrote:I recently read something about Mediums etc and how it could be that they don't 'contact the dead' but rather pick up our own subconscious thoughts, which would actually explain what happened at the reading funnily enough because of course only I knew the true details of what the Medium told me. Maybe I unconsciously provided the information that would confirm she was 'above board'.

Interesting, I must say it's something I've considered myself, but that is scarcely less mystical than her actually knowing those things.

I too like things to be proven to me, and that is why, I suppose, these are always difficult discussions. Because we can't prove them either way. And perhaps it's better that way...

...better that we leave it up to what each person believes.

Life must have meaning, I agree, and whether we make it up for ourselves, or we "recieve it, (which in my mind at least comes to the same thing), makes no difference. As long as it sustains us, I guess that that is the most important thing.

--A

Yep it is a testament to the great power of the human mind. Of course then it takes away from the theory of a higher being or presence or something and makes all these seemingly wonderful and mystical things down to us! I'm not sure which is scarier!

I think these wonderful and mystic things are down to us. I think that we give ourselves far too little credit.

As Fist and Faith wrote:

Are we so insignificant and vain that we cannot look upon the raw, naked face of randomness without praying it will smile upon us merely because we have been righteous and good?

Thou art god, and if you want to see the face of the ineffable, all you have to do is look in a mirror.

It is scary in a sense, because it does mean that we have nobody to blame. It also means that we need thank nobody.

"Reasons" are our attempt to come to terms with the way that the universe unfolds so uncaringly around us. The way that it grinds on, often over us, over our thoughts and our feelings.

How much easier is it to say, "It was meant to be" instead of saying, "I could have done something." "I should have done something."?

We don't like responsibility, we don't like ignorance, we don't like the fact that sometimes, things just happen.

For me, it's a simple truth, and one that I find helpful in all manner of ways. Sometimes, things just happen. *shrug*

In fact, I downright dislike the idea of some higher being interfering for that most nebulous of reasons, "our own 'good.'"

I prefer it that I get to act according to what I think is for my own good. And if I get it wrong...well, that's my fault too then.

--A

I must admit if I hear something allegedly pre-determined and I don't agree with it, all my notions about destiny go out of the window

I am more scared of people realising they have this potential and learning to use it consciously. Can you imagine the chaos?

KAY1 wrote:I must admit if I hear something allegedly pre-determined and I don't agree with it, all my notions about destiny go out of the window.

Which only goes to show that they're more notions than anything else. Either everything, inlcuding the things you think aren't, is predetermined, or nothing is.

I don't think anybody has a destiny. All we have is where we are, and where we've been. Where we will be is up to us. Otherwise, what's the point of getting up at all? Otherwise, we'd all be better off sitting and waiting for our destiny to manifest itself, in which case it never will.

And while it might be chaos in the short-term, I think in the long-term it would be fantastic.

--A