Reasons

[Avatar]

What the Reason,
Was the Reason,
Is the Reason Real?

Funnily enough, I was planning this topic since yesterday, but I was interested to see Syl himself touch on it briefly in the 'Tank today, (or whenever he posted), and that gave me the impetus to follow through.

Reason. What Syl said was that he was a determinist, and from the rest of his post, I gathered that he thinks that things happen for a reason.

Now this, (and this is why I was thinking of the topic in the first place), is a frequent point of debate between the GF and myself. I'm sorta wonder if it's a Buddhist thing, because she's quite into that whole thought at the moment, but what it basically boils down to is that things happen for a reason.

According to her, there's a lesson in every event, and so, if, for example, you were to lose a child, it would be because you needed to learn something about loss, about grief, about the impermance of things, or something.

The thing that really gets me though, is that, as far as she is concerned, there's nothing mystical at all about it. She doesn't believe in some godhead, some direction, somebody sitting up there and saying "X must happen", she just thinks that it's a natural part of the way that the universe works. Nothing mystical at all.

Now me, as some of you may have figured out, I tend more towards the "there is no reason for anything...things just happen."

So I was wondering...who's a determinist now? Who thinks that things happen for a reason...and what is that reason? (That's the important question, I think.)

Can it be seperate from a "god" (as I'm sure Syl must think as well). Or does a "reason" automatically imply, as I believe, that somebody directs it? And therefore if there is nobody directing it, there cannot be a reason?

Anyway, just curious to hear your thoughts.

--Avatar

[Loredoctor]

Great thread idea, Avatar.

I am of two camps; the post-event role of cognitions camp and of the determinist camp. It's a maxim that the any event is the product of an almost-unlimited number of interacting variables (i.e. that when you throw a ball through the air there a millions of variables, some 'inconsequential', that affect the outcome. Faced with a vast, difficult to predict system (i.e. weather > lightning > bolt strikes car > passenger dies) we tend to, after the event, subscribe the role of providence or fate into it (something supernatural or 'meaningful' - i.e. God >weather > lightning > bolt strikes car > passenger dies), as though seeking to explain or understand it, or deal with grief (i.e. God weather > lightning > bolt strikes car > passenger dies > grief > god's role succours). But this typical of humans assigning meaning to events; the same way we see faces in clouds or in the landscape.
Now the other camp I also follow ist the determinist camp; that perhaps there is pre-determined or concurrently determined system we are all involved in. Something elements of my life I feel can be explained this way, but then again, note the above paragraph. The thing is, though, perhaps we 'determine' the universe. If the quantum world has been shown to be altered by the role of the observer, and there is some belief this happens on a macroscopic level, maybe our minds are directing the world or reality.

[The Somberlain]

I think I have various levels of opinion in this matter.

If you ask me, "are you a determinist; does everything happen for a pre-ordained reason?" I will probably say no. If I put even a little thought into it - to me - it seems crazy, and even arrogant, to suggest that the universe has planned events for YOU. As well as everyone else, obviously, but nonetheless it comes across to me as maybe a desire to feel significant.

Not that that's not understandable. Because... I think I do have an instinctive drive to believe in that, in some sort of fate. I guess that's not quite what the question's asking, but I do seem to have this little voice in my mind that says that, if something bad happens, something else'll balance it out. And vice versa. But if I think about it, it's... silly. There's no reason for that. And similarly with the idea that if something happens, it must be for some purpose. Again, if I try to analyse that I always come up with: "Things just happen."

If one is religious, or spiritual in some way... if you believe that there is a higher power of some sort, basically, I can see that the idea of purpose in everything is much easier to believe.
If there is a God, and He has a Plan, then presumably everything that happens in the world is a part of this Plan. If there is some great power in the cosmos that maintains balance and justice throughout, it makes sense to assume that every event is contrived as a part of this.
(So, I think that's probably me in agreement with you, Avatar - if things are to happen for a reason then there must be someone or something directing it. Though perhaps it doesn't have to be a clear-cut God figure: it could just be a natural "presence" causing things to happen this way).


Then, of course, there's what happens if I start thinking about it really hard, and think that everything is essentially a process of electron/proton/photon/neutron/whatever-on movements in atoms. That, after all, a chemical reaction can be predicted - so theoretically, every event can be predicted. So in a sense we ARE following a set path - just one that we can't realistically know. Everything, then, happens for a reason. The reason that - given everything that's gone before - there is no other outcome. This causes me to start thinking about the nature of time, and which way it runs, and it gets really confusing.

Then I get scared and start telling myself that there is free will, there is free will, there is free will...

[Avatar]

Some excellent posts already guys.

I tend to agree with LoreMasters first assertation. That human beings automatically seek to assign meaning to events. It is not only that it's a desire for significance, but it's a fear of insignificance, if you can see the difference.

perhaps we 'determine' the universe

Now that, as I'm sure LM was aware, is something that I whole-heartedly agree with. If there is any "determination" going on, it's in our heads. But it's not the kind of determination that says, you're a selfish bugger, so you're going to lose everything. (Unfortunately.)

See, I like the idea of justice. I just don't think that there really is any. Not in an incorporeal sense anyway.

And I'm a big believer in free will too. I choose my actions. Regardless of external events or circumstances, I can choose to act contrary to them if I want.

We would all like to think that bad things are balanced by good things. But there is nothing that says it must be so.

Good post Somberlain. And LoreMaster too.

--A

[The Somberlain]

See, I like the idea of justice. I just don't think that there really is any. Not in an incorporeal sense anyway.

And I'm a big believer in free will too. I choose my actions. Regardless of external events or circumstances, I can choose to act contrary to them if I want.

We would all like to think that bad things are balanced by good things. But there is nothing that says it must be so.


--A

This pretty much sums up what I was attemping to say

[[Syl]]

It's not that I believe there's a reason, per say. I just know that things can't happen any other way. Free will is an illusion. And the opposite is also true. I have it all laid out in the "what do you believe" thread.

go down on your silly knees pray
for what? tomorrow is yesterday

don’t worry please please how many times do I have to say it
there’s no way not to be who you are and where

-Ikkyu

[wayfriend]

I tend to agree with LoreMasters first assertation. That human beings automatically seek to assign meaning to events. It is not only that it's a desire for significance, but it's a fear of insignificance, if you can see the difference.

Which may not be a bad thing. If perceiving a pattern of guidance in the random (or seemingly random) events of the universe helps us grow, to be better people, to in fact be better able to deal with more random (or seemingly random) events of the universe, then that is a good thing, right? Even if the premise is suspect, the result is good. (Sort of like the Mormons!).

Some might even consider it an inherited trait which increases our chances of survival ... uh oh ...

Anyway ... for the rest of this thread, I will now believe that Cail exists to piss me off. Comments?

[lucimay]

so i went over to the "what do you believe" thread to read what Syl wrote.

kevinswatch.ihugny.com/phpBB2/viewtopic ... sc&start=0

great post! your brand of "weird" is "normal" to me, Syl.

your story reminds me of the inscription on the Sun god Apollo's Oracle of Delphi temple in ancient Greece..."Know Thyself"


for my own part...everything happens for a reason but that doesn't preclude free will...i have nothing to argue this with...no logic, no story about how i came to believe this, no theories. it's just what i think after living for 47 years. i'm sorry i can't rationalize for you guys, i would if i could...and bizarrely, when i started reading the posts in this topic the first thing that came to mind was Newton's Third Law of Motion...but that could just be my brain making irrelevant connections.

[Avatar]

Perhaps we need to differentiate somehow between reasons and A Reason. I mean, I know what Syl is saying there too...everything happens for a reason because things cause other things...cause and effect, right? But, I don't believe that the universe conspires.

I don't think that what happens to you is meant to happen to you. I don't think that you get experiences to teach you the lessons you have to learn.

And that's not exactly right either...you do get the experiences that teach you lessons that you need, but it's because your actions cuased that experience, so, for want of better explanation, if your action was flawed, then the experience that it generates will be flawed along that same line, and if you learn the lesson...you get what I mean, I'm sure.

And yes WayFriend, in the sense that you mention, it can be a good thing. Perhaps you're even right about the inherited characteristic. Afterall, discovering patters of causal relationships were vital in the survival of the species...It hasn't rained, food won't grow type of things.

Is all this just an offshoot from that basic requirement that we understand our environments? Have we merely extended it into a realm where we assign the causes to effects, simply because we know that effects are caused, therefore there must be a cause?

And I'm not sure Cail exists at all, let alone to annoy you. Perhaps you're just annoyed, and you need a reason?

there’s no way not to be who you are and where

I dunno. There's no way not to be who you were and where. But there are ways to be who and where you will be. *shrug*

--A

[lucimay]

I don't think that you get experiences to teach you the lessons you have to learn.

i do. i think that way because of things that have happened to me over and over again until the "lesson" was "learned".

now...at this stage of the game...there are red flags that clue me in a little better...situations i know to avoid, situations i know i should engage in because if i don't, those very situations will arise again until i get it.
(i'm hearing Richard Pryor...where'd that spider go, miss voodoo lady? I don't know, says voodoo lady, but come thanksgivin, if you don't bring me that turkey, you will SEE HIM AGAIN!)

like you said, it seems causal when i'm experiencing it...at my house, we call it "the fix". the fix is in, we say.

but perhaps it's because i'm human, NOT because i'm cyndi. maybe it just FEELS like it was meant for cyndi when it's REALLY meant for ALL humans...lessons humans have to learn...
and i guess this really isn't germane, is it...sorry if i blather, i'm just thinking out loud in print.

[Avatar]

And that's not exactly right either...you do get the experiences that teach you lessons that you need, but it's because your actions caused that experience, so, for want of better explanation, if your action was flawed, then the experience that it generates will be flawed along that same line, and if you learn the lesson...

As long as your behaviour was "flawed" it would lead you straight back into that experience, until you learned enough to modify your behaviour.

That, I'll certainly agree with. You're doomed to repeat history until you learn from it.

But that isn't the same as imagining that something wants you to learn that lesson. The universe couldn't give a damn, as far as I'm concerned, whether you learned or not. It'll grind on regardless.

And that is what makes me say there isn't a reason. Or at least, A Reason.

--A

[Injerian Praetus II]

And that is what makes me say there isn't a reason. Or at least, A Reason.

--A

Good post.

[Avatar]

*bows*

--A

[wayfriend]

But that isn't the same as imagining that something wants you to learn that lesson. The universe couldn't give a damn, as far as I'm concerned, whether you learned or not. It'll grind on regardless. ... And that is what makes me say there isn't a reason. Or at least, A Reason.

Ah, but Avatar, you make a logical leap when you assume that grinding on implies not giving a damn. Could we really learn if there were no stakes? Could we really learn if mommy universe picks us up puts us back on the right track whenever we veer off of it? Part of the lesson we need to learn may be that we're on our own, despite whatever Reasons there may be.

[Fist and Faith]

No time at the moment to read beyond Av's first post. Regarding that, I don't think there's ever a reason for anything. Um... Not sure what else to say. Heh. But here's a couple of quotes that I love on the subject. Both of which I've posted before.

From Neverness:

Why should man seek justice in a universe which is manifestly unjust? Are we so insignificant and vain that we cannot look upon the raw, naked face of randomness without praying it will smile upon us merely because we have been righteous and good?

From Watchmen. One character tells us how he came to call himself Rorschach. He was trying to rescue a little girl who had been kidnapped. When he found the kidnapper’s house, he found out that the girl had been killed, butchered, and fed to the dogs. Rorschach handcuffed the man to a pipe, and set the house on fire. He left a saw with the man, but told him that he’d never be able to cut through the cuffs in time. Implying that, if he wanted to live, he’d have to cut his own hand off. Then he went outside to watch the scene. Here's how he describes that moment:

Stood in firelight, sweltering. Blood stain on chest like map of violent new continent. Felt cleansed. Felt dark planet turn under my feet and knew what cats know that makes them scream like babies in night. Looked at sky through smoke heavy with human fat and God was not there. The cold, suffocating dark goes on forever, and we are alone. Live our lives, lacking anything better to do. Devise reason later. Born from oblivion, bear children, hellbound as ourselves, go into oblivion. There is nothing else. Existence is random. Has no pattern save what we imagine after staring at it for too long. No meaning save what we choose to impose. This rudderless world is not shaped by vague metaphysical forces. It is not God who kills the children. Not fate that butchers them or destiny that feeds them to the dogs. It's us. Only us. Streets stank of fire. The void breathed hard on my heart, turning its illusions to ice, shattering them. Was reborn then, free to scrawl own design on this morally blank world. Was Rorschach.

The blue is mine, because those words are exactly what I believe, without Rorschach's negative opinion of the situation.

[Avatar]

Excellent quotes Fist, I know that on this question, we certainly agree.

Are we so insignificant and vain that we cannot look upon the raw, naked face of randomness without praying it will smile upon us merely because we have been righteous and good?

Awesome. But read the rest of the posts when you have a chance.

WayFriend, while I agree with the essence of your point, the only possible stakes are personal ones. Our actions can make us suffer in some way. Beyond that, beyond the hear and now, there are no stakes. That's what I mean when I say that it doesn't really matter.

Grinding on may not be the same as not caring, you're absolutely right. But it might as well be considering the apparently patent lack of intervention. *shrug*

--A

[KAY1]

Right, after a quick run through of what other people think, I have to say that I do believe many things happen for a reason, but that 'chance' or 'luck' (apparently they are 2 different things) can definitely play a large part in the outcome.

For example, I went to see a spiritualist medium a couple of years ago on recommendatin from a friend. I have always had an open mind about things like this and was quite interested to see how it would go. I had recently split up with a boyfriend, whom I had been seeing for a few months after splitting up with someone else whom I had been in an on-off relationship with for years. As it had been my decision to call it off as I felt it wasn't going anywhere, i desperately felt the need for the new relationship to work. The Medium told me that I would be reconciled with someone I wanted to be with within 6 weeks. So I assumed it was the new guy. Almost 6 weeks to the day I started seeing the original guy again! This was in spite of my practically ignoring him (we were still friends) and concentrating on winning back the new guy (still with me?).

So basically it was as though it was pre-written that I would get back with guy number one, despite what I did against this aim.

The same Medium actually told me though that nothing is 100% predetermined and that we all make our own decisions. In this case that wasn't exactly the case, though I wonder if I had guessed she meant guy no 1 would I have acted differently and would the outcome have then been different?

That was just one example. On the other hand if I had handled certain situations differently my life would have taken a completely different direction. This may have had to me having a 'better' life, but in what sense? the friends I have made as a result of major decisions I made (or even minor ones) have been very important to me at certain stages in my life through illness for example and if I had been in a different situation things may have turned out very differently.

Anyway, all that rambline does have a point lol Basically, I believe that there is a big picture out there and that certain things are 'meant' to happen. I also believe however, that we can indeed change certain things through our choices and also through the intervention of luck/chance. Otherise what would be the point of it all?

Over to you Avatar!

[KAY1]

I just realised as well that my example had nothing to do with chance or luck lol unless you count it as luck that I misinterpreted the reading?

[Avatar]

Always great to see somebody new participating in the Close. I hope that you'll make it a habit.

I must though, I'm afraid, pretty much disagree with part of what you said though. To me, it looks like you're saying that some things are pre-destined, while others depend on your actions.

Hmmm, I suppose that if I had to, I could accept that better thna the notion that all things are pre-destined, if in fact pre-destination is the right way of putting it at all.

On the other hand if I had handled certain situations differently my life would have taken a completely different direction. This may have had to me having a 'better' life, but in what sense? the friends I have made as a result of major decisions I made (or even minor ones) have been very important to me at certain stages in my life through illness for example and if I had been in a different situation things may have turned out very differently...

I certainly don't think that we get anywhere playing the "If I hadn't done that..." game, because what we have is the present. What we have is based upon the way that we did act, not the way that we could have.

But where my own issues come into this is more along the lines of "why?"

Why were you meant to be with a certain person? If you had acted differently, and ended up somewhere else completely, would that have been meant too? And who by? Who or what wants you to be in the circumstances you currently find yourself in, and why?

...I also believe however, that we can indeed change certain things through our choices and also through the intervention of luck/chance. Otherise what would be the point of it all?

I certainly agree with this, except I must add that I think we can change anything by the way we act/choose. Except, change isn't really what I mean. What I mean is that your action/choice determines your future. If you look, you can even see the points, the cusps, as it were, where this has happened. Where, if you'd taken a different turning, something else would have happened.

To posit that something other than yourself influenced that turning is, I feel, not giving yourself enough credit.

If we can effect some things in our life, why not all things? Is it so great a leap?

Perhaps it lies simply in the fact that I don't believe that anything or anybody has some "plan" for our lives. Rather, that we live the best we can for our own good or ill.

Did you really "misinterpret" the reading? Perhaps your interpretation was spot on, and something else, through your own actions, caused the end result?

Aren't readings like that deliberately ambiguos because, as you yourself said you were told, nothing was 100% certain? Deliberately?

Two interesting concepts come up there in your post though, niether of which I think we've more than touched on in passing here in the Close. Luck, and...foretelling, if you like.

What is the difference, if any, between luck and chance? And can the future really be told?

--A

[Prebe]

Unfortunately I don't know squat about quantum theory (other than the cat stuff), so I will stick to "Good ol' Isaac":

Every miniscule thing that happens is predetermined, because everyhing that happens is a result of the spatial position and speed of elementary particles after the big bang.

There!