Kevin's Watch

Actually, that makes a lot of sense with something the girlfriend and I were discussing. Ben appears in the coat and the arm would in the desert. Now, we don't know exactly how long it takes him to meet up with Sayid, but it seems it could be pretty quickly, which means he must have moved in time (if not time and space) to end up where he is, as Sayid is already embittered after Nadia has died. With this article, makes perfect sense.

Seriously,, you needed a article from Popular Mechanics( ????_) to get what was going on in season 4 Lost. ? Follow me on this , please.

In season 3 , there was the Great Easter Egg exposed in the Clock Work Orange Brain Washing scene of Karl,,When the sound was played back in reverse,, there is a female voice, saying,, Only Fools are enslaved by By Time and Space.,,repeatedly..So ,,warning was already there. Interesting that the author of the article mentions Desmonds Time travels.. but he was on the Island,,not stringing his way thru the needles eye of 305 degrees. Of course the whole deal is only theoretical,,unless some one has lasso'ed up a worm hole or two and hog tied them for some close observation.

Sure ,, in the chatrooms etc of LOST there are basiclly two schools of thought,,the science fiction group and the pyscho-tropic group. Lost being a science fiction story has basically been denied by the TPTB,, as their words , early on , were "pseudo science story."...hhhmm 4 seasons in ( out of 6) and they finally get to some fundamental " pseudo science???
Thats where the psycho-tropic group says,,by pseudo science we mean..experimental drug lab.. experimental human behaviour lab,,etc etc etc..and its been there all along from season 1. Of course,, there me,, who stands alone and says.. just read up on Andre Breton,, read some of his books, especialy Nadja,,Humor Noir, Arcanum 17,, etc,, and you will have LOST by the balls..A read up on another noted Surrealist,, Rene Magritte, is highly recommended, if you want to understand what this whole idea of " Mystery " is concerning LOST.,,And yes,," pseudo science" can be a lablel applied to " Surrealism"... Lost picks up where Nadja leaves off.

So whats my point...well,,until somebody gets an article in Popular Mechanics,, about what Smokie the Monster is..i see no need to get into the Popular Mechanics of LOST..I mean.. wheres the article on how a bunch of people survive a plane coming apart at 10 k ft..or how much magnetic energy it would take to reach up 10, 000 ft and make a plane come apart..btw,, its been already figured out and it would be have to be so strong,, that it would tear apart molecular and atomic bonds.. so basically,,all the folks on the plane would be turned into puddles of gue.

At this juncture,, it is usually invoked the.. suspension of disbelief clause. To which I say..no.. its not suspension of disbelief they want the viewer to do,, but rather,, accept the disbelief,, accept the exaggerated and distorted reality that is being presented as for what it is,, Illusion,,Slight of Hand,,and there fore have to go somewhere else to make any sense out of it..because the show makes NO LOGICAL SENSE whatso ever. So why start with theoretical physics that is basically fiction in the first place.. I mean.. you all do understand as soon as the word " quantum" is used,,we are talking of a reality where,,, ANYTHING IS POSSIBLE.

Now.. what other reality can claim that?,,anything is possible?..Yes,, The reality of the Imagination...where the Surreal awaits to be discovered and created from...as ben put it..The Magic Box.

So what did Ben do? He moved the Island in Time , of course. Dr Marvin Candle Wax Maker there gives all the clues you need in the video that John watches. But,, if you remember well..the " Orchid Video" that was on the sites last fall..really made the scientist Candle Wax Maker,,look kinda comical as events went haywire around him. Abit of satire I think. So with that I'll give you Carlton Cuse's own words to heed..Season 5 Lost will make the" Dharma ites" ( science fiction) happy, but season 6, we will utterly crush their theories........You've been warned.

.. I have now been officially accepted as a Dharma Initiative Recruit


www.dharmawantsyou.com/site/index.phpiative


I suspect everyone gets accepted....like there is no wrong answers..

C'Mon..if your a LOST Fan this is a Must.. for the fun of it!

received this in the email this a.m.,,,,this is getting seriously funny....



ATTENTION ALL RECRUITS
RE: SECURITY BREACH AT COMIC-CON 2008

As many of you may be aware there have been a number of security breaches in recent days related to the nature of the Dharma Initiative's latest research.

Apart from the leak of a sensitive internal communication there was also the unauthorized release of confidential video documentation during a sponsored panel discussion with the makers of the TV show "LOST" at Comic-Con 2008 in San Diego. Consequently, the person responsible for this breach, a promising recruit by the name of Dan Bronson, has been expelled from the volunteer program and had his Dharma Initiative membership permanently revoked. Furthermore, the Dharma Initiative has withdrawn their sponsorship from "LOST".

The Dharma Initiative must stress that the video material leaked at Comic-Con 2008 was viewed entirely out of context. Furthermore, the way in which the material was presented utterly distorted its significance and credibility as scientific data.

The Dharma Initiative is extremely disappointed with this outcome and has ordered a security audit of all departments. As part of this audit the DharmaWantsYou recruiting website will undergo a security upgrade in the next few days.

Upon completion of this upgrade a date will be announced for the official commencement of Volunteer Assessments.

All recruits are reminded that the unauthorized release of confidential information pertaining to the details of your activities within the Dharma Initiative will result in instant dismissal from the volunteer program.

Namaste.
Hans Van Eeghen
Head of Recruiting
The Dharma Initiative



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Actually, it's all part of viral marketing for the show. If you go to every little website they list and dig and keep digging every day, it will eventually pull up a story. There is the Lost Experience that happened a few years ago, and last year I think it was the find815 or something like that. Looks like the Dharma Initiative is the viral marketing fun this year.

REALLY??...c'mon Cag..This is really hilarious. Dharma disassociating itself from LOST..ppppfffffffffffffTTTTTTTT!..They are expert at keeping a straight face. Like the show, the straighter the face, the more dark the humor..This whole DI thang appears to have made a turn into the shadows.

..As an official Dharma Initiative Recruit..I took my first Official Test today..It was a Spatial relationships test in 100 seconds..The quickest I was able to solve the puzzle was 34 seconds..Fun..but it reminded me of the tests I took when I first joined the Army..In a few days they will post the top ten scorers on the test..

lurch wrote:REALLY??...c'mon Cag..

Really.

Check this out.

Cagliostro wrote:

lurch wrote:REALLY??...c'mon Cag..

Really.

Check this out.

Yea yea yea..been there done that..well..alot of it anyway..still,, its all rather humorous and adds something for the LOST fan to do between seasons..or like me..it adds something to laff my arse off at..I mean..Hans Van Eeghen,,Head of Recruiting Dharma Initiatve..???..sure sounds like Egg Head to me..

Just watched the season 4 DVD box set. I wondered if anyone had asked the question about why no-one questioned where the plane was supposedly found on the sea bottom or why it was 'staged' where it was?

Planes leaving Sydney bound for America travel a ENE flight path across the Pacific. The crash site off Indonesia would require a flight path of NNW flying for some 5-6 hours before getting there and would be overland for the majority of that time. A plane getting "lost" or off course, would have to be in cloud for the whole journey; even the dumbest passenger would twig that the orange stuff below was not water. It was daytime during the flight.

This is not a small mis-calculation or an error that any storm or instrument malfunction could account for. Any ideas?

Also was there discusison about the character names in a earlier (Lost 1, 2, 3, ) thread?

I'm on episode 19 of the first season, very much sucked in. Can't wait to catch up with you guys and scan this thread.

The show kind of reminds me of A Song of Ice and Fire--probably cause you feel none of the characters are going to survive...heh. There's also a lot of "court intrigue".

Lord Foul.. May I suggest..forget the plot. The plot makes no logical sense..Okay,,well.. maybe I should rather suggest..forget Logic..Leave Logic behind when viewing this show LOST. LOST is all about the FEEL. I mean,,the whole gritty sweaty reality presented is so tactile,,so obvious,,go with it.

In each episode, especially the first two seasons, there are many easy references to Surrealism, its almost like the writers and producers were lifting whole sections out of Andre Breton's works. I mean,, the beginning ,, the very first thing you see in season one episode one is..a close up of the human eye, a motif repeated thru out all seasons of LOST.. ITS a HUGE Bill Board proclaiming, SURREALISM INVOLVED HERE.

So, dump logic, trust your Feeling, your intuitive, and you may " get" the Surreal parable that each episode is. Yes, characters are named with Philosophers from the ages. Go with it. Look them up and see how they and their Time perceived Truth, and reality,,and relate it back to how that character fares in the episode. Yes, LOST is ALL Metaphor.. Thats where Lost makes sense and no where else. Each character's dialogue tells you what they represent. Jack is Western Logic, Locke has to do with blind faith, Kate is " Freedom", etc etc etc. In this realm, LOST mushrooms, expands, the viewers understanding of what it is to be a human being in the Modern Age,,in this realm, is the Art of LOST.

Staying with the zillion questions never answered,,will leave you exactly there,,nada, nothing , zero land. Asking for logical reasonable answers will only frustrate and eventually disappoint. So, I can only suggest,, forget Logic,,free your self from it and really enjoy the show with how it makes you feel.

lurch wrote:Lord Foul.. May I suggest..forget the plot. The plot makes no logical sense..Okay,,well.. maybe I should rather suggest..forget Logic..Leave Logic behind when viewing this show LOST. LOST is all about the FEEL. I mean,,the whole gritty sweaty reality presented is so tactile,,so obvious,,go with it.

Well yeah, the dark swelling music right before commercial break, the jungle and the "Can't-trust-anyone" feel. It's a bit of supernatural thriller, Survivor, and some Cast Away sprinkled in. I've also heard of (and by now, seen) that the island is most odd and probably going to get a lot odder.

I don't know if any of your post directly addressed my question Lurch, but despite the intangibility and surreal nature of Lost, there is nonetheless a solid plot-line that this hangs off of. In that stream, the position of the downed aircraft is a major plot hole OR it is a detail which has yet to be explored.

Details are not missed too much in Lost and many plot-lines are dependant on the attention to details. The plane that was "found" was in altogether the wrong place and that fact was not quieried by anyone in the US following the discovery how so? For the cartographically challenged lets equate this to flying from Dalls to Miami but ending up in Seattle....then muliply the distances by x2.......... Not a small blooper imo!


Lurch if you are interested in the surrealistic nature of Lost you might also look into the lesser know Belgian surrealist Paul Delvaux. His work is more Freudian in nature but better embodies the ethereal and dream state than Magritte's work.

finn..whoa,,hold it rite there pardner..people do not survive a plane coming apart at 30,000 or 10, 000 or 5000 ft..period. But we get wrapped around the axle about a fake found thousands of miles off course...? Wasn't there an explanation put forth by Tom to Michael,,on how Widmore dug up bodys and stuffed them in a plane and sunk it in the trench there? There is the explanation..That it was in the wrong direction..Well now..we have a Roger and Croyel masquerading as Covenant and Jerimiah, don't we?..That is,,an obvious falsehood being put forth as a Truth. Okay? Got It? Now,,ask yourself,,have there been any falsehoods put forth as Truth,,in your life, in the town where you live?, in the State, in the Country,,in the World, you live in?
The point of it all is..YES, of course it doesn't hold water that the fake plane was found thousands of miles off course,,but that it was accepted and repeated by the media etc etc,,just shows how Subjective life is.It shows how an Illusion ,as truth, can be bought and paid for. It shows how a Reality,,can be manufactured,,how a Illusion can be successfully foisted on the people.

The whole fake plane deal is just an expansion on " Illusion as Reality",,or the Subjectivity of Reality that was done so well in the first two episodes of season 2..Basically it was demonstrated how the same events,,seen from two different perspectives, give two different understandings..hence the Subjectivity of what is called " real". Actually,,ALL of LOST,,every little detail of LOST,,is an Illusion being presented as a Reality. Like I said,, people don't survive a plane coming apart at flying elevations,,polar bears don't survive Tropical heat,,and cloud of smoke isn't intelligent,,the last I heard anyway.

Spoiler

and Islands don't just disappear

.IMHO,,LOST is Reality as seen thru a person who has suffered a breakdown,,came apart. The Island is the Insane Asylum..Each episode is the person finding a bit of Truth,,slowly coming back together.. slowly defining Who The person Is. Like Carlton Cuse put it.." of course its all metaphor."

and Yea,, all the original Surrealists integrated Freuds ideas heavily, at least at first.

Yes Lurch, I agree that there are "happenings" that defy the rules but they are based on or around the Island or what the Island touches; all the "supernatural" type events are Island-based. Polar bears in the desert may indeed be strange but are either covered up or will make the news...... the real world IS still governed by the rules.

Your comparisons are of events in one world with events in another which of course don't stack up. The subjective reality is that the real world is the same one we all live in and its rules are those we all live by.

There are similarities to the Chronicles like the land being a place where magic exists but (except where touched by the land/creator), the 'real' world does not have magic. The "real" world in both Lost and TC must remain as a constant to demonstrate the wonder of the Land/Island.

This being so, the discovery of the plane underwater near Indonesia would and should raise questions of how it got there when travelling for 6 hours in almost the opposite direction, over land not sea and in broad daylight!

There may be subjective reality and clearly the Island seems to exert some pressure on those who have visited it, but that someone who was supposed be be flying the plane, would have noticed a wedding ring missing but not noticed the plane was found thousands of miles off course flying the wrong way, is a plot hole!

Or is it..............?

finn.. its only a plot hole because you keep insisting the real world is govened by rules..You insist on an Objective, when there is none...not in Lost anyway.
Iguess you didn't get that point about real world and supposed rules when in season 3,, Jack is being bated by Ben to operate on Ben's tumor,, Ben offers Jack a one way trip off the island. Jack doesn't believe him. Ben rolls out a TV and starts playin the Boston Red Sox World Series Game and says.. " Jack, since you've been on the Island,, back in Your World,,George W Bush has been re-elected, Christopher Reeve has died and the Boston Red Sox has won the World Series.Now, don't you really want to go back and begin living again?"." Now,, if you don't get the HUGE joke in that line,,which I believe I first heard on the Dailey Show,, Steve Colbert I think..the HUGE Joke that Ben is offering Jack a trip to a World where W got re-elected, Superman Died, and the RED SOX won the world series,,,oh well.. Yea ,,rules..inother words.. the Real World that Ben is offering Jack,, is just as crazy,,Illusionary, whacked out,, as the reality of LOST... Rules?..what rules? There is Smokey The Monster running all around the Island.. WHAT RULES??? Jack ,, back in the Real World,,while looking at a Patience's Xray of a busted backbone,, gets distracted by a fire alert alarm thats 50 yards away, and beeping cuz its battery's are low..Something a maintenance guy takes care of ..not a doctor!!. and Jack goes and fixes it!!. Rules??.. Are you telling me the flashbacks and forwards are real?,, Are you saying the flashbacks and forwards, the real world,, are not exaggerations into absurdity.? Well if you are,,then its no wonder you see plot holes where there are none.

Hey,, you can watch it how you may,, don't get me wrong. Its just ,,all the millions of questions generated by this show ,,are not generated by the show LOST,, but by the mis perception of the Show Lost. So the fans get upset cuz the producers don't answer their questions. The producer's Can't answer their questions because how do you tell a fan that they are mis perceiving the show and keep them as a fan at the same time.? You can live with the the frustration and disappointment all you want. At the end of each episode I don't have questions. I have enjoyment and amazement...

Hey heres one for you.. All of Lost,, and I do Mean ALL,, of LOST is Illusion as Reality..By the end of this shows run.. you will see that LOST is the greatest Reality Show ever.The Truth of Lost is what the viewer finds within himself by end of each episode.

Lurch, did you also enjoy The Prisoner? Seems like the same could be applied to this show, and why people got so upset by the final episode.

Lurch, I started watching this show based upon a comment of yours about how good it was, for which I thank you. However, whilst I have no issue with the proposition that the show has many layers of reference, illusion allusion, surrealism, Freudianism etc. I do maintain that there are three levels of consciousness.

The first is here in our world where you and I can pinch ourselves to check our reality. The second is the "real" world within the show where broadly speaking the same rules apply. The third is the Island and the things/people the Island touches.

The plane crash is in the second category and as such the circumstances should broadly comply with what we'd expect in the first category. That they don't says either: this is a plot hole or writing/continuity error, or that it has a significance in the plot that has yet to be revealed.

My friend, I am not challenging your views about the illusionary nature of the Island or indeed the Show, but my view is that until there is "direct" departure in the writing from the rule structure of the "real" world (Category #2), I can maintain that this is the control by which the supernatural nature of the Island is measured. In that scenario, people question things, which sells papers, gets hits on sites and interests viewers. A mystery like a plane going down thousands of miles off course in the wrong direction is VERY newsworthy!

I think this view is logical and consistent and is in no way in conflict with your overall theory as I have read it from your posts and your previous answers.

I dod not dismiss that there may be a relationship between the Island and the real world in the show or that indeed there is not a relationship with the show and its impact in this, our world. But those things are not about what I am saying!

Cag..I watched The Prisoner as a young man . The first Time I watched it I sat there saying wtf is this? Some years later I watched the re-run on American PBS,,which was actually the Canadian Broadcast version..The Canadians added a 5 minute dissect at the end of each episode,,kinda explaining the symbolism and theme of each episode. That opened my mind up as to what McGooghan and company were up to. Then I watched the 16 epiosdes again ,,a decade later. Seemed Lifes experiences even widened my understanding more.

The ending had a Voltaire ala " Candide" type of ending,,as in,,Voltaire ended Candide with the characters happily tending to their patch of the garden,,implying ,,Life is a personal thing,, worry and act about your own needs and wants,, straighten up your own house first. The Prisoner driving away in his Morgan into London Traffic with a slite smile,,suggested to me anyway,, the same idea,,of take care your own business first,,you drive your own car in the traffic of life so to speak..The Prisoner had literally rocketed above and out of the Special Island reality as I recall. The Prisoner was ..like Lost..All Metaphor. The message is in the metaphor..or...like Donaldson's Chronicles, LOST, Eli Stone, etc etc etc..The Reality Of the Metaphor... Is The Message.