Random destinies
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- Fist and Faith
- Magister Vitae
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- Immanentizing The Eschaton
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I don't understand. ?Tjol wrote:Why should a person be given the opportunity to live a single day of life on earth if they are not all going to be perfect days?Avatar wrote:So why put Job through it if he knew he would succeed?Tjol wrote:God doesn't need to 'prove' anything, because he is all-knowing, right? He knows Job will suceed, and he knows that Job will make profit from the hardship.
--A
You seemed to ask the same kind of question.Avatar wrote:I don't understand. ?Tjol wrote:Why should a person be given the opportunity to live a single day of life on earth if they are not all going to be perfect days?Avatar wrote: So why put Job through it if he knew he would succeed?
--A
"Humanity indisputably progresses, but neither uniformly nor everywhere"--Regine Pernoud
You work while you can, because who knows how long you can. Even if it's exhausting work for less pay. All it takes is the 'benevolence' of an incompetant politician or bureaucrat to leave you without work to do and no paycheck to collect. --Tjol
You work while you can, because who knows how long you can. Even if it's exhausting work for less pay. All it takes is the 'benevolence' of an incompetant politician or bureaucrat to leave you without work to do and no paycheck to collect. --Tjol
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- Immanentizing The Eschaton
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No, I mean I don't understand the question. ![Very Happy :D](./images/smilies/icon_biggrin.gif)
Are you saying they are all perfect? (They are btw.) Or that they can't all be perfect? Or that just because they're not, doesn't mean that you shouldn't live?
My question was a lot more straightforward.
Why make Job suffer to prove a point, if you know your point will be proven?
--A
![Very Happy :D](./images/smilies/icon_biggrin.gif)
Are you saying they are all perfect? (They are btw.) Or that they can't all be perfect? Or that just because they're not, doesn't mean that you shouldn't live?
My question was a lot more straightforward.
![Very Happy :D](./images/smilies/icon_biggrin.gif)
--A
If God is responsible for all of our existences, and all of our exitences contain some days that aren't as good as others, do you think we should be given the opportunity to live life, or is it cruel? Even if God knows that we will see ourselves overcoming the bad days, and having better days?Avatar wrote:No, I mean I don't understand the question.
Are you saying they are all perfect? (They are btw.) Or that they can't all be perfect? Or that just because they're not, doesn't mean that you shouldn't live?
My question was a lot more straightforward.Why make Job suffer to prove a point, if you know your point will be proven?
--A
I'm asking the same question is a broad instance that you are asking in an isolated incident.
Is Job the only person in the history of the world to suffer? Is he the only person in the end to profit from his hardships? Is it wrong for any human being to experience any suffering?
"Humanity indisputably progresses, but neither uniformly nor everywhere"--Regine Pernoud
You work while you can, because who knows how long you can. Even if it's exhausting work for less pay. All it takes is the 'benevolence' of an incompetant politician or bureaucrat to leave you without work to do and no paycheck to collect. --Tjol
You work while you can, because who knows how long you can. Even if it's exhausting work for less pay. All it takes is the 'benevolence' of an incompetant politician or bureaucrat to leave you without work to do and no paycheck to collect. --Tjol
- Fist and Faith
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If we go through life getting getting good and bad - depending on how well we plan things; random events; and other factors - then I'm fine. Without evil, there's no good. Without bad days, there are no good days. Without illness, we don't take joy in our health.
But if our lives are being controlled, and I have to watch my children die, don't give me new ones and expect my praises.
But if our lives are being controlled, and I have to watch my children die, don't give me new ones and expect my praises.
All lies and jest
Still a man hears what he wants to hear
And disregards the rest -Paul Simon
Still a man hears what he wants to hear
And disregards the rest -Paul Simon
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I think there's a difference between knowing we will overcome adversity, (or won't because lots don't), and forcing that adversity on you for a dubious and essentially unnecessary reason.Tjol wrote:If God is responsible for all of our existences, and all of our exitences contain some days that aren't as good as others, do you think we should be given the opportunity to live life, or is it cruel? Even if God knows that we will see ourselves overcoming the bad days, and having better days?
--A
So you don't hold God accountable in general for the bad things that happen in any person's life, but in this specific case, you think God is responsible for what Satan did to Job?Avatar wrote:I think there's a difference between knowing we will overcome adversity, (or won't because lots don't), and forcing that adversity on you for a dubious and essentially unnecessary reason.Tjol wrote:If God is responsible for all of our existences, and all of our exitences contain some days that aren't as good as others, do you think we should be given the opportunity to live life, or is it cruel? Even if God knows that we will see ourselves overcoming the bad days, and having better days?
--A
"Humanity indisputably progresses, but neither uniformly nor everywhere"--Regine Pernoud
You work while you can, because who knows how long you can. Even if it's exhausting work for less pay. All it takes is the 'benevolence' of an incompetant politician or bureaucrat to leave you without work to do and no paycheck to collect. --Tjol
You work while you can, because who knows how long you can. Even if it's exhausting work for less pay. All it takes is the 'benevolence' of an incompetant politician or bureaucrat to leave you without work to do and no paycheck to collect. --Tjol
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Well, personally speaking, I don't hold God accountable for anything, since I don't think there is a God. However, for the purposes of this discussion, I think it's incumbent on me to act as though he does, otherwise it would be pretty pointless. ![Wink ;)](./images/smilies/wink.gif)
So in that light, (positing that god does indeed exist), yes, I do think he was responsible for what Satan did to Job. He gave his permission for Satan to do whatever he wanted to him. That makes him responsible.
But as I said, this is all hypothetical to me anyway. We're proceeding on the assumption not only that he exists, but on the assumption that the contents of the book of Job are indeed an accurate reflection of what happened.
--A
![Wink ;)](./images/smilies/wink.gif)
So in that light, (positing that god does indeed exist), yes, I do think he was responsible for what Satan did to Job. He gave his permission for Satan to do whatever he wanted to him. That makes him responsible.
But as I said, this is all hypothetical to me anyway. We're proceeding on the assumption not only that he exists, but on the assumption that the contents of the book of Job are indeed an accurate reflection of what happened.
--A
- Fist and Faith
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As I've often said, things like this (and killing the firstborn of every home that doesn't have lamb's blood on the doorpost; etc) are not reasons to not believe such a deity exists. But they're reasons I would not follow such a deity if I believed such a deity did exist.
All lies and jest
Still a man hears what he wants to hear
And disregards the rest -Paul Simon
Still a man hears what he wants to hear
And disregards the rest -Paul Simon
Well let me create something of a similar diagram...Avatar wrote:Well, personally speaking, I don't hold God accountable for anything, since I don't think there is a God. However, for the purposes of this discussion, I think it's incumbent on me to act as though he does, otherwise it would be pretty pointless.
So in that light, (positing that god does indeed exist), yes, I do think he was responsible for what Satan did to Job. He gave his permission for Satan to do whatever he wanted to him. That makes him responsible.
But as I said, this is all hypothetical to me anyway. We're proceeding on the assumption not only that he exists, but on the assumption that the contents of the book of Job are indeed an accurate reflection of what happened.
--A
Is the government responsible for every murder that it does not prevent? Is the government guilty of murder because they provide an environment in which people can get murdered?
"Humanity indisputably progresses, but neither uniformly nor everywhere"--Regine Pernoud
You work while you can, because who knows how long you can. Even if it's exhausting work for less pay. All it takes is the 'benevolence' of an incompetant politician or bureaucrat to leave you without work to do and no paycheck to collect. --Tjol
You work while you can, because who knows how long you can. Even if it's exhausting work for less pay. All it takes is the 'benevolence' of an incompetant politician or bureaucrat to leave you without work to do and no paycheck to collect. --Tjol
God neither told Satan to do it, nor did even hint that he wanted it to happen. He said you 'may'. He allowed for a context in which it could happen. Much like original sin, which I don't think makes God responsible for any sin ever committed, unless he's also responsible for every good thing that's ever been done by mankind.Avatar wrote:No. But if they tell their hit squad "Go out and murder that person" then they're guilty. Hell, they're guilty even if they just happen to hint that they'd like somebody to disappear.
Did ol' whatsisname...uh...Henry...bear some responsibility for the murder of Thomas Becket?
--A
"Humanity indisputably progresses, but neither uniformly nor everywhere"--Regine Pernoud
You work while you can, because who knows how long you can. Even if it's exhausting work for less pay. All it takes is the 'benevolence' of an incompetant politician or bureaucrat to leave you without work to do and no paycheck to collect. --Tjol
You work while you can, because who knows how long you can. Even if it's exhausting work for less pay. All it takes is the 'benevolence' of an incompetant politician or bureaucrat to leave you without work to do and no paycheck to collect. --Tjol
- aliantha
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So then Job never was favored by God?Tjol wrote:God neither told Satan to do it, nor did even hint that he wanted it to happen. He said you 'may'. He allowed for a context in which it could happen. Much like original sin, which I don't think makes God responsible for any sin ever committed, unless he's also responsible for every good thing that's ever been done by mankind.Avatar wrote:No. But if they tell their hit squad "Go out and murder that person" then they're guilty. Hell, they're guilty even if they just happen to hint that they'd like somebody to disappear.
Did ol' whatsisname...uh...Henry...bear some responsibility for the murder of Thomas Becket?
--A
The impression I've always had (okay, based mainly on Heinlein's version in "Job: A Comedy of Justice"
![Wink ;)](./images/smilies/wink.gif)
And if Job was never favored by God, then what was the bet about?
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- Fist and Faith
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Bet? You must be thinking of a George Burns movie or something.aliantha wrote: And if Job was never favored by God, then what was the bet about?
Well, that's the argument of free-will vs. no-will. Again, back to original sin and the acquisition of the knowledge of evil (and as is often forgotten, the knowledge of good)...Fist and Faith wrote:Yes. And some of us think this is a horrible thing to do. I have trouble seeing it as less evil than what Satan did to Job.Tjol wrote:He said you 'may'. He allowed for a context in which it could happen.
It's also the long running argument of the individual or the environment...
I don't have any trouble seeing what God did as being much less evil than what Satan did. God created access to the knowledge of evil and the knowledge of good. That people choose to do good with it or evil with it is their choice. Likewise, Satan chose to abuse Job. Satan couldn't help himself? Job chose to stay righteous in spite of what he'd suffered. Is God's creation of the context for Job to prove righteous in spite of Satan's cruelty acknowledged here?
I guess first people would have to acknowledge righteousness as an acheivement, or even understand it as an acheivement. But in the narsicistic present that leans so hard on disavowing of right and wrong, I suppose the acheivement of righteousness is hard to grasp. Only one of you is posting with a pretty obvious axe to grind, but even the rest of you, open to some level of discussion, seem only to be seeing the bad of it, in spite of my trying to walk the proverbial horses to water. Hopefully it's been an enjoyable exploration, but from this point it looks to become repetitive. I can only show you a few pictures and find out what you take from them, if you don't want to take anything from them, you don't have to.
"Humanity indisputably progresses, but neither uniformly nor everywhere"--Regine Pernoud
You work while you can, because who knows how long you can. Even if it's exhausting work for less pay. All it takes is the 'benevolence' of an incompetant politician or bureaucrat to leave you without work to do and no paycheck to collect. --Tjol
You work while you can, because who knows how long you can. Even if it's exhausting work for less pay. All it takes is the 'benevolence' of an incompetant politician or bureaucrat to leave you without work to do and no paycheck to collect. --Tjol
- Fist and Faith
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Don't worry overly much if we don't all see it the same way you do, Tjol. Everything in life is a Rorschach test, eh? Even if we were all viewing this particular inkblot from the same perspective - that is, with the same thoughts and beliefs - there's bound to be some differences in how we would see it. No two people are exactly alike. But since we're viewing this from extremely different perspectives... Know what I mean? ![Very Happy :D](./images/smilies/icon_biggrin.gif)
As far as Job goes...
![Very Happy :D](./images/smilies/icon_biggrin.gif)
As far as Job goes...
I still say a whole lot of people died horrible deaths so that Job could be proven righteous. Servants put to the sword or burned, his children crushed when the house collapsed. Where's the righteousness in all that?Tjol wrote:Is God's creation of the context for Job to prove righteous in spite of Satan's cruelty acknowledged here?
You may be right. I don't know if there are very many objective rights and wrongs. Most things can be seen in different ways, depending on their context. I know the things I believe are right and wrong. One of them is demonstrated in Job. Murdering a bunch of people in order to test someone's faith is wrong. And allowing the murder of a bunch of people in order to test someone's faith is wrong. And if I thought this God existed, I'd tell him so.Tjol wrote:I guess first people would have to acknowledge righteousness as an acheivement, or even understand it as an acheivement. But in the narsicistic present that leans so hard on disavowing of right and wrong, I suppose the acheivement of righteousness is hard to grasp.
All lies and jest
Still a man hears what he wants to hear
And disregards the rest -Paul Simon
Still a man hears what he wants to hear
And disregards the rest -Paul Simon
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But... if the people that were murdered or killed in some way were given eternal life in heaven would you feel the same way? Life is transitory and in the context of eternity encomposes a very small amount of time.Fist and Faith wrote: You may be right. I don't know if there are very many objective rights and wrongs. Most things can be seen in different ways, depending on their context. I know the things I believe are right and wrong. One of them is demonstrated in Job. Murdering a bunch of people in order to test someone's faith is wrong. And allowing the murder of a bunch of people in order to test someone's faith is wrong. And if I thought this God existed, I'd tell him so.
- aliantha
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It's still murder, SB. Isn't there a commandment against that?
I think that's what's bothering some folks here about this story. Humanity is expressly prohibited from killing each other. Yet God decides to give Satan free rein -- which includes killing people -- in order to prove a point about one guy. So God and Satan clearly play by different rules. Yet we are supposedly made in God's image, right? So it's natural for us to have the urge to kill people sometimes -- and sometimes for no good reason -- yet God may not forgive us for it (remember, this story is taking place before Jesus absolved us all of our sins).
It's the fact that God sets up the rules but feels free to break them himself -- and doesn't have to answer for it. "Well, he's God!" Right -- another of those religious answers that doesn't really answer anything.
I think that's what's bothering some folks here about this story. Humanity is expressly prohibited from killing each other. Yet God decides to give Satan free rein -- which includes killing people -- in order to prove a point about one guy. So God and Satan clearly play by different rules. Yet we are supposedly made in God's image, right? So it's natural for us to have the urge to kill people sometimes -- and sometimes for no good reason -- yet God may not forgive us for it (remember, this story is taking place before Jesus absolved us all of our sins).
It's the fact that God sets up the rules but feels free to break them himself -- and doesn't have to answer for it. "Well, he's God!" Right -- another of those religious answers that doesn't really answer anything.
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