A Game of Thrones

[Skyweir]

And the finale next Monday and I have to look after doggos in the city next week!!!! I won't be able to watch it till Thursday next week ... 3 whole days later!!!! 3 whole days

[Skyweir]

I purposely haven't spelled out deets cos no one has talked about this weeks yet

[DoctorGamgee]

I purposely haven't spelled out deets cos no one has talked about this weeks yet

Then let's discuss!!!

Wow, what a great pen-ultimate episode. They set up the finales in this show very well. Lots of high stakes action pushing us forward. Last year it was the Battle of he Bastards. This year, we have North of the wall battles.

Since we left off last week with LittleFinger/Arya/Sansa, we might as well start there. This week, we see Sansa find the faces, and Arya catch her at it. My initial reaction to the scene was hating to see how LF had gotten between them and set them at each other. Upon further reflection, I am not sure it was honest. Arya made the point as they were playing their game of faces, that each of them wanted to be something else: Sansa a queen with a handsome king on the throne, Arya a knight battling openly. But even as she's threatening Sansa, wondering what it would be like to wear all the pretty dresses, she does a curious thing and hands Sansa the knife. She doesn't walk away with it and a veiled threat, but clearly hands her the weapon. Consider everything that Littlefinger has put Sansa through: betraying Eddard and handing her off to the Lannisters, rescuing her from them (while using Sansa's Hair net as the poison vehicle) and then making her the "Natural daughter" and then the Eyrie, kissing her where her crazy aunt could see, and then rescuing her again by killing Lysa, only to sell her off to the Ramsey, then Rescuing her and John. Sansa has said that you can't trust him, and LF mentions to Sansa that Brienne would be honor bound to keep the kids from hurting each other. So by sending her away, she gives LF the sense that something is amiss.

Then, there is all the mistakes Arya said in the Game of Faces. She somehow remembers the pretty dress and hair, but not the screaming for mercy and almost fainting as Ed was dragged forward? I don't buy it. She says she wouldn't serve the Lannister's like Sansa did, and yet...who was Tywin's cup bearer? And finally, handing the knife to her after the whole thing about girls not being able to choose their own path. Arya has given Sansa the weapon which she can choose to avenge herself on LF. I wouldn't be surprised if LF doesn't make it past the Finale of this year...

Then we have to talk about Jon and the quest. I LOVED the fact that he offered Jorah his sword back. Eddard's actions, and fortunately rebuffed by Jorah. The quest was a success...they have their wraith. But they lost Viserion. Dany hates losing her child, but the mother of dragons doesn't shed tears to Jon when he says, "I wish I could take it back." Although she is unaware that her two living dragons will now have to battle their dead brother. That will be a blow, for certain.

And speaking of Children...we have a couple of things to consider. For example, Maggi the witch said Cersei would have only three. Yet, we know she had one that didn't survive with Robert (the dark haired boy who was clearly Robert's son), so either she really isn't pregnant, or if she is, she may not live to see this one survive. Though, considering she had been asked about "What Dynasty" by Jaime, perhaps that would have been the answer. But perhaps it too will be lost. The other question I have, is why Dany thinks she can't have any more. Now, I know that the witch that brought back Drogo and was later killed said she would have no more until the Sun rose in the west and set in the east. But should we really believe her? This is a woman who was angry, and had just taken Dany's child and the horse to bind Drogo to life. She was a hateful woman, who lied about being fixing Drogo in order to keep the child who would mount the world from being born...so whether she was speaking the truth or not...I remain unconvinced.

The real question I have, is with the undead Dragon, will it still have fire, or will it breathe Ice? That has yet to be seen. We know that White Walkers and Wraiths don't do well with fire, so having one that breathes it seems counterproductive and setting itself aflame with the Night King on its back is a bad plan. So we are thinking that the fabled Ice Dragon spoken of by Nan may be this one? We shall see.

Thoughts, fellow watchers?

[wayfriend]

The real question I have, is with the undead Dragon, will it still have fire, or will it breathe Ice?

Fire.

As you said, WW don't do fire. I think that now they have some. And that Wall is made of ice. I see the WW on the other side of the wall by the end of the next ep.

[I'm Murrin]

I still cannot believe we've gotten this far into it and not one single mention has been made by any of the characters of the possibility of a political marriage. It would be one of the first options considered! Daenerys would probably think of it herself!

I was so sure that Rhaegal was gonna come back and rescue Jon (second dragon rider!), but then it was like... what? Benjen? Out of nowhere? Ugh.

[DoctorGamgee]

I still cannot believe we've gotten this far into it and not one single mention has been made by any of the characters of the possibility of a political marriage. It would be one of the first options considered! Daenerys would probably think of it herself!

I was so sure that Rhaegal was gonna come back and rescue Jon (second dragon rider!), but then it was like... what? Benjen? Out of nowhere? Ugh.

Well, Murrin, Euron has been all for Marrying Cersei. So at least One of the characters has made a bid for it.

But as for Dany, she (like Cersei) is less likely to offer it, as there is no history of women ruling in Westeros (except Dorn), and the minute they are wed, there is the expectation that the Man will plant his seat in the Iron Throne and effectively rule Westros. Thus, while Cersei has said that she will marry Euron "once the war is over" her getting a child with Jamie means she intends to wed him (in the traditions of the Targaryens) and her child (boy or girl) will ascend. If Jon and Dany wed, most of Westeros would consider the pair of house Stark (until his Targaryen father is made known) but either way, Dany would not sit in the Iron Throne, it would be Jon's. Breaking the Wheel, means that Dany would take the Throne, not John, and their first child (boy or girl) would ascend.

Or am I missing something?

Doc

[Skyweir]

... Dany, she (like Cersei) is less likely to offer it, as there is no history of women ruling in Westeros (except Dorn), and the minute they are wed, there is the expectation that the Man will plant his seat in the Iron Throne and effectively rule Westros. Thus, while Cersei has said that she will marry Euron "once the war is over" her getting a child with Jamie means she intends to wed him (in the traditions of the Targaryens) and her child (boy or girl) will ascend. If Jon and Dany wed, most of Westeros would consider the pair of house Stark (until his Targaryen father is made known) but either way, Dany would not sit in the Iron Throne, it would be Jon's. Breaking the Wheel, means that Dany would take the Throne, not John, and their first child (boy or girl) would ascend.

Or am I missing something?

Doc

Doc you've made some brilliant points. I loathe LF - do you know I was confused at first because my mind went straight to Lord Foul LOL .. but yes Little Finger LF .. I dearly hope you are right!!

As for Dany and Jon marrying - I know its a popular belief/expectation/hope but I don't see it. I think they will both find out they are brother and sister and I just can't see Jon marrying and bedding his sister like a Lannister

But what an awesome ep! I can't visit here till after next Thursday as I am working away from home and won't see the finale till then. The place I am staying only has NETFLIX and no HBO

I have a number of grave concerns.

I think what you have posited about Arya and Sansa is brilliant! I hope it pans out that way - that Arya in a way is playing LF! Making Sansa the warrior. I fear for Sansa though as she has admitted to coveting the role of Queen of the North! And she didn't defend Jon's absence to the northern lords.

What a feckless lot the northern lords are! Good lord .. Jon is gone what 5 - 10 minutes (ok maybe months) and they immediately return to their gossiping and winging!

Now my grave concerns -yes Dany will go to Kings Landing with her army at her back and her dragons - Jon too is there (from the preview) but I don't trust Cersei - I am fearful that she will do something to Dany

Brienne will be there (I don't know why Cersei invited Sansa to go - Jon is going to be there - but it will open her eyes to the true Jamie. Yeah yeah .. he has become more likeable since pushing a child off the tower to his death .. but hopefully she will see that his loyalties and his sense of honour are blinded by his "love" of Cersei.

Cersei is ruthless - callous .. she terrifies me.

I so want Little Fingers role in Brans accident to come out .. but he can die first .. but how good a trigger would that be? He's such a self-serving bastard .. I want him to suffer for all his many crimes.

He wants to sit on the iron throne with Sansa at his side .. through Sansa/Queen of the North, but I do hope that never eventuates.

The problem I have is if the writers (now past the books) are influenced by Martin, he is a blood thirsty realist - and in the real world evil often triumphs and rules. People who ask "why do bad things happen to good people" aren't realistic, of course shit happens to everyone, the just and the unjust.

So I bet if it were the books Martin would not honour the fantasy hero code, (not that I blame him because as a reader I much prefer the anti-hero, a real character with layers .. like an onion) LOL

Though if the writers are more influenced by what the audience might want / ratings etc .. we may see a slightly different outcome.

I cannot wait to watch the finale - but I have to

[dlbpharmd]

And season 7 is over...

Spoilers coming (spoiler tag is a pain in the ass)

I'm satisfied overall with the way this season turned out. I bitched about the rapid fire pace and the ability for characters to seemingly teleport from one location to another. But we saw a great deal of action, and much of the story advanced, and I'm content.

I loved to see Arya and Sansa together, and Littlefinger get what's coming to him. That was an amazing scene.

We finally and officially had R+L=J confirmed, and now that Jon and Dany are an item, that raises interesting possibilities.

Theon's journey on the road to redemption was longer than Thomas Covenant's.

[wayfriend]

Me, I was a bit surprised that the finale lacked a big set action piece. Instead, it was all yet more additional continuing further extending set-up.

Lots of reunions. You can palpably feel all the threads coming together.

So sad about Tyrion. I was rooting for him in the love game. Still, it ain't over until it's over.

It was indeed nice to see LottleFoul (:)) get what's coming to him. Still, I can't help but feel disappointed. Seems like he deserved to be tied into the end game somewhere. All that lead up ...

oh: Fire. The answer was 'fire'.

I will have to post my final finale predictions again. They haven't change much though.

[DoctorGamgee]

Well, wayfriend, there are some things to consider bout the Death of LF that have not been resolved. For instance:

What will happen to the Vale now? When we left, LF was the beloved step-parent of Sweetrobin. How will he react to the news that LF is no longer there? This is an unbalanced child who is about to find out that the man he thought was his friend actually killed his mother. Or will they keep that from him? Will he survive? Or will the current leader of the Vale Forces take over? With the dead marching would they be able to return to the Vale? Or will they be cut off?

Sansa has just made great friends with this mighty force. Petyr had threatened the troop leader, but gave him lead of the army instead of killing him, so LF's death makes him very happy. Is she holding the North for Jon's return? Or has his decision to renounce his kingship and bend the knee started more trouble? We hope that Sansa is doing the right thing. But if the Northern Lords decide no southern queen (or Targaryen king, as Jon is) will hold it, the decision will not be neat and tidy.

But, I was glad to see I was correct on the Sansa/Arya game. May not be the sharpest knife in the drawer, but I ain't a spoon! LOL!

[wayfriend]

It seems to me the whole Robin Arryn / Vale story line got dropped. Squeezed out. I don't mind, and I can see why. But it does leave Littlefinger dangling a bit. Perhaps that explains his rather sudden demise. Perhaps that's why Yohn Royce was a notable presence at his termination.

Question: Didn't Cersei and Jaime excuse their incest by claiming that the Targaryen royals engaged in such? And didn't the Targaryens claim that they did so because dragons did? And don't we have two remaining sibling dragons?

[DoctorGamgee]

Well, the Mother of Dragons named them all after boys. So perhaps she didn't know their sexes. Or...they are like some frogs and can change sex. So more dragons could come. And perhaps it will be the mating of Aegon and Dany that will get the reptiles frisky? Who can say?

[wayfriend]

[Avatar]

So, I thought S7 was supposed to be the last season? Now suddenly there's another short season coming?

--A

[I'm Murrin]

There's been an 8th season planned for a long time.

[Zarathustra]

I don't understand why the one dragon didn't provide cover for Dany's dragon as it was preparing to lift off with its mother and the Band of Badasses in the episode before the finale. Those spear thingies were made of ice. The dragon couldn't melt them? Why not go immediately after the dude who just killed your brother dragon? They could have taken out all the White Walkers with a single blast of fire.

[I'm Murrin]

I can't help trying to figure out which bits of the show will be in the books or not.

For example, Jorah's stay in Oldtown and curing his greyscale was so short and simple I think it's either a plot from the books they felt they needed to get out of the way quickly so they could bring him back into the action, or they just regretted sending him off last season and did it for similar reasons. I expect the former, and there'll probably be something longer and more interesting in the novel.

The expedition beyond the wall is 100% an invention for the show, that I'm certain of. It's just too dumb and too TV. I suspect in the books whatever brings Daenerys north will be much more sensible, but they needed a way to do it for TV that was short and neatly tied things together going into the finale, so we get all these characters suddenly meeting up and going on a quest together.

[DoctorGamgee]

It's tough to say, Murrin. I'll be honest, I love the books much more than the show (despite the fact that the actors have now inhabited my brain), but who can say what is until the dratted things arise from the printer and get published?

One of the things that makes me bat**** crazy, is the random "theories" one sees. They aren't theories at all, just random postulates, many of which will never be proven. There is much talk about how the Night King is indeed Bran, which is how he knows everything. OK..well...we could look at that as a possibility. But then they use the proof that an snapshot of the WW army that looks like the Stark Sigil as their proof of a big "screw you" to Jon. SHUT UP! Seriously...you just heard Bran and Sam discuss that Jon's name is not a Stark, he's a Targaryen. So why are you sending a Screw you Aegon Stark symbol? Now, I don't mind speaking my mind when I have an idea. Sometimes I am right (Sansa/Arya) and sometimes I am wrong (Blue Fire, not ice). But at least when I asked the question, I understood that it was unknown at that time. But FanFic and FanTheory really, REALLY should be two different things.

OK, I'm going to go calm down. Sorry about the rant.

[wayfriend]

I like the theory that Arya is really dead and that it's been the Waif all along.

I mean, I think it's cool as a theory. I don't want it to actually happen! But that's how wild fan theories should be done, I say!

[DoctorGamgee]

Yeah, I suppose. But in order for that to have happened, the Waif would have had to Kill Aria in the dark (Which is possible). But then, if we are to believe the story we see (and that is always a big "if") she needed to remove Arya's face outside of the Black and White temple, then cut her own face off, and gotten Arya's on so we could see the face of the Waif hanging on the rack of faces while she called herself Arya Stark and I'm going home.

Could it be possible. Perhaps. But then we have to explain why the Waif had to lie to Jaqen (if this indeed is something that the faceless men wanted...why not just do it?) and also why her targets were from her list. She gets the Freys, then heads for Cersei, only to backtrack when she hears of Jon and Sansa. See, it starts to get muddy? I know you are only teasing, but if you are going to try to convince me...you'll have to put more into it than that.