President Trump

[Cail]

Let's clear the air about a few things...

- When you refer to "the Left" as a monolithic group, you're as stupid as someone who refers to "the Right" as a monolithic group. The vast majority of the country falls pretty close to the center, doesn't give a shit about what other people do in the bedroom, or what they smoke, or who they pray to. The vast majority of the country worries about putting food on the table, keeping a roof over their heads, and taking care of their families.

- When referring to "the Left", you're really referring to progressives. Progressives are a fringe group who believe that they're smarter than everyone else, and have no problem telling you that. If you don't agree with them, you're either evil or ignorant (or a combination of those two things), and you need to be saved from yourself. There are very few progressives, however the media and entertainment industries (but I repeat myself) are full of them....Self-important people who think their opinion matters and aren't used to being told "no".

- When referring to "the right", you're really referring to the social cons/religious fundies. These are also fringe groups who think they have the moral or God-given authority to tell people how to live, and if you don't agree with them you're immoral or evil, and need to be saved from yourself. There aren't many of them either, but the media loves showing them to point out how backwards people who disagree with progressive principles are.

- If you call our current president "Drumph", "45", or anything other than his given name, you've self-identified as an idiot and guaranty that no one will take anything else you say seriously. You're as idiotic as anyone who referred to the prior president as "Obummer".

- If you use words like "sheeple", "Demoncrat", "Rethuglican", etc, you're even stupider than the people who use "Drumph" or "Obummer".

- If you compare Trump to Hitler, or use Nazi terms to describe him, you're an insensitive asshole. Hitler was a madman who tried to wipe the Jews off the face of the Earth, was responsible for 5 million other deaths from the Holocaust, and he started WWII which was responsible for nearly 80 million deaths. Trump's said some ineloquent things. Not at all the same, so stop making this comparison and making yourself look like a dildo.

- If you are concerned about our current president's posturing towards Iran, but sat quietly by and supported the prior president's illegal invasion of Libya, you need to shut up.

- If you're plastering pictures of Aleppo all over your Facebook page and supported the prior president's inaction in Syria, including his vanishing "red line", you need to cut it out....Syria is 100% Barack Obama's fault.

- If you supported the prior president's "I have a pen and a phone" policy towards Executive authority, but are appalled at what the current president is doing with Executive Orders, you need to shut your damn mouth. Many of us told you that this policy would bite you in the ass.

- There is only one group of people who have been resorting to violence over the last couple of years, and they're not conservative, Republicans, religious fundies, or social conservatives. Progressives have proven time and time again that they'll preach tolerance and equality right up to the point that they don't get their way.....And then they throw violent tantrums.


Trump is making some good choices and some bad ones. Just like every other human being on the planet. He has the entire establishment media against him. He has nearly the entire entertainment industry against him. And he has the fringe Left against him. So far, he really hasn't done anything unexpected, or of much consequence. He's proposed some things; that's all.

He's nominated a very, very good SCOTUS justice. Nikki Haley was an inspired choice for the UN (and I bet she runs for POTUS in 8 years). Rex Tillerson will, I think, be a very good SoS. DeVos....Nope. Rick Perry....Nope. But no one bats .1000.

Trump has the potential to be less of a statist than what we're used to. He's still a statist, and he's far from a conservative (he's opposed to free trade), but he's at least a breath of fresh air.


And before anyone thinks about typing a response about how this is different than 8 years ago, stick a sock in it. 8 years ago, obstructionism and the Party of No were the phrases of the day. Now protest is patriotism. If the #Resist had been a thing 8 years ago, it would have been labeled as racist.

[Zarathustra]

I agree with nearly everything you said, Cail. Good post. I suppose I am using "Left" and "progressives" to mean the same thing. I'm not sure that most people are in the middle. It feels like we're getting more polarized. I think the Dems are definitely drifting more leftward all the time. They used to be somewhat moderate.

While not all Dems are rioting in the streets, I think that they all share a very similar worldview, one that allows for very little variation or nuance. They are mostly going to view Trump like an extremist views Trump: no redeemable qualities, unequivocally evil.

Trump hasn't done anything to justify the level of outrage against him. It's all the product of caricature and exaggeration. Over 1 billion of the world's Muslims are still eligible to come to America, but the left-leaning media would have us believe that he enacted a Muslim ban. It's all emotion, no reason.

[Loredoctor]

Great post, Cail. Really great post.

[Cail]

Zar, the fact is that most people are lazy and don't have time to devote to researching the news. They just swallow what the progressive media feeds them. So a law that's designed to restore due process rights to American citizens is reported as Trump giving guns to insane people, and an EO that prevents a last-minute Obama EO from taking effect is Trump making it harder for low-income families to buy homes.

It is disgusting what's being reported in the news. If anyone had any doubt about media bias, it should be painfully clear now.

[Cail]

[Brinn]

Now you've gone too far!

Although you could say he almost looks like he's preparing to make love to the G.O.A.T. !!!

[Cail]

Now you've gone too far!

If hating on Tom Brady is wrong, I don't want to be right.

[Brinn]

If hating on Tom Brady is wrong, I don't want to be right.

Oh, then don't worry because you're not right!

[Holsety]

Because my longer post got borked, I'll say:

Is there any evidence that they are willing to give Trump the benefit of the doubt? Or, in this "it isn't black or white world," is Trump and his supporters unequivocally evil in their eyes?

I really don't see Trump supporters as evil. Even though I feel heavily opposed on lots of relevant issues, the trump position seems to at least originate from rational, defensible desires/fears/interests. Trump himself and particularly powerful/influential people under him, evil or not, I don't really give the benefit of the doubt now, because what little attention I've paid makes them appear - appear - to be really, really haphazard. It feels like they really do not care about the consequences of what they are doing.

I don't know that I necessarily expect them to be able to easily develop an appreciation for those consequences, and sheer indifference to general consequence is probably a good way to get some immediate consequence. We want out government to be farsighted enough to accomplish things carefully. Realistically that seems like something it usually fails to do.

I will say I thought your particular defenses in the post above this were piss poor. Like, some of the most laughable I've seen related to Trump.

However, we have the Left nowadays talking about blowing up the White House and having a riot when a university invites a speaker whom they don't like.

A lady who I consider my aunt (in other words - she is not family by blood but she is family because I know her well) would talk about how she wanted someone to kill Obama. Her husband would then usually say more calmly that he wished he would just go away (i.e. just fade). I never heard her revoke that comment. I see people talk about killing jews, blacks, etc frequently online. I've sat in a cab and had a guy talk to me about how he didn't like jews much, most likely because he didn't know I was jewish (I then told him I was). Note I still kind of liked the guy for the duration of the ride and didn't shit on him for being racist or nazi or antisemite.

I honestly don't think I buy the thing from Cail that Americans don't care about what people smoke/sleep with/pray to. I really hear a lot of discomfort and distrust related to these issues from lots of people of all ages - and I used to dismiss it as banter but now I'm thinking more and more we're just genuinely intolerant as humans (especially of bad habits we have ourselves). Although I'm inclined to say I see this more from the right on the most noticeably objectionable level, parts of the left sure do love bashing christianity (not entirely undeserved so much as not necessarily particularly deserving) and I think people who are insufferable about cigarettes tend to be a particular kind of liberal (I smoked a nic cig once only but do it as long as you don't want to quit). Also, fuck the Patriots. Other examples would surely come to mind if more minutes were spent.

But I do think a lot of Americans have enough sense to not vote on their distaste for a lot of these things. I do buy to some extent that many of the left and the right might not be dogmatically driven by ideologies they'll espouse. Definitely those that are are noticeable, but I think some people spend a lot more time saying what they think is right than doing anything about it. They then spend the rest of the time worrying about the practicalities Cail mentioned. I think it was more important to my parents - to the extent they ever doubted (don't think dad ever really did) - that I be democrat in feeling than that they, let alone I, lived lives in or out of work that really did anything to push those ideals forward - aside from the token vote.

I suspect we are politically extreme, and no longer emotionally apathetic about our situation as a country. I left work about a week after the election to put time into securing an internship (have), and I don't know how the kids at my school spend their time because I don't interrogate them that heavily. I'm also going back to work saturdays starting next weekend. From what I've seen, people usually spend enough time working that they are not politically active aside from posting like I'm doing now. The visible steps I saw after Trump were protests and bothering politicians as constituents.

[Zarathustra]

....I don't really give the benefit of the doubt now, because what little attention I've paid makes them appear - appear - to be really, really haphazard. It feels like they really do not care about the consequences of what they are doing.

I'm not sure how you can conclude this. Maybe they just want different consequences than you.

Do you think Obama carefully considered the consequences of pulling out the troops from Iraq, attacking Libya without a strategy for what happens after victory, or failing to back up his "red line" with action? Those decisions all seem very haphazard and all have significant negative consequences, but we rarely hear his supporters or the media (I know, redundant) hold him accountable for the massive unrest in the Middle East he has caused, from the Syrian civil war, to the migrant crisis, to the rise of ISIS. Those are catastrophically bad consequences that we already know happened. But people seem more concerned about what Trump might do than what Obama has already done.

I will say I thought your particular defenses in the post above this were piss poor. Like, some of the most laughable I've seen related to Trump.

That's interesting, I'd like to hear you back that up with a specific criticism.

However, we have the Left nowadays talking about blowing up the White House and having a riot when a university invites a speaker whom they don't like.

A lady who I consider my aunt (in other words - she is not family by blood but she is family because I know her well) would talk about how she wanted someone to kill Obama.

Unless she was an international celebrity speaking to the recent women's march in Washington, I don't think these are at all similar. Madonna spoke to 1000s of women about blowing up the White House while they all cheered. If any Republican celebrity had spoken to a crowd about violence against President Obama, society wouldn't have just laughed it off or made excuses. That celebrity would have been branded as a racist; it would have been an outrage. Ditto with Republican riots/mobs. People call Trump fascist, but ignore that the Left is actually using fascist tactics to shut down speech they don't like ... while getting away with speech that no Republican would ever get away with.

[Hashi Lebwohl]

I honestly don't think I buy the thing from Cail that Americans don't care about what people smoke/sleep with/pray to.

That is probably the most true thing he said in that entire post. I still don't know why people publicly proclaim something such as "I'm gay", "I'm trans", "I'm poly", "I'm otherkin", or whatever else they are proclaiming because, truthfully, no one gives a shit. The ones who do give a shit are nosy busy-bodies who need to quit minding everyone else's business.

The anti-Trump protests are ridiculous, in any event--they won't result in anything except a little more property damage and a few more arrests. As time passes, people will lose interest because they have to focus on real things such as their job, their house, their relationships, etc., leaving only the vocal fringe to continue to protest. One supposes that the vocal fringe is either independently wealthy or unemployed and living on government handouts, else they wouldn't be able to spend so much time protesting.

Universities which disinvite speakers with whom they or their students disagree should have their accreditation revoked--if you can't handle alternative viewpoints then you can't bestow legitimate degrees upon anyone because your school is doing the opposite of broadening the minds of your students.

[Brinn]

Also, fuck the Patriots.

This is offensive. This thread should be locked.

[Avatar]

The ones who do give a shit are nosy busy-bodies who need to quit minding everyone else's business.

The problem is, they're the ones who make the most noise, creating a false impression of numbers.

If they actually did quit, the perceived environment / atmosphere would almost certainly improve considerably.

--A

[Holsety]

Seriously - I copied and pasted my post after it got borked again. Perhaps a problem with quote tags.

I'll try and get it posted tomorrow night.

It's probably me because I know you guys can post, but I think every post I make gets eaten before it gets out. At least this one is saved.

EDIT-
I kept trying. What a waste of time. Maybe there is invisible word formatting that stays in here and screws with the post. Should have done it in something else. Time to sleep.

[Cail]

I feel your pain Holsety. The forum software doesn't like something - usually cut & paste stuff. It's a shame, but it is what it is. I've not posted dozens of times due to the errors, and it's seriously reduced how often I check in here.

[DoctorGamgee]

The ones who do give a shit are nosy busy-bodies who need to quit minding everyone else's business.

The problem is, they're the ones who make the most noise, creating a false impression of numbers.

If they actually did quit, the perceived environment / atmosphere would almost certainly improve considerably.

--A

Numbers don't tell us much in reality, as sadly, most folks only believe the numbers that they agree with. California, a state seemingly so liberal it wants to secede because of Trump, passed Prop8 in 2008 to make Marriage be defined as only Man/Woman.

In reality, unless you are preying on someone who can't stand up for themselves (children, mentally challenged), who you sleep with (providing it is consensual) is none of my business. But then again, much of the laws we pass fall under this category.

[Wosbald]

+JMJ+

... Progressives are a fringe group who believe that they're smarter than everyone else ... Self-important people who think their opinion matters and aren't used to being told "no". ...

What I want is all that matters; everything else is immaterial. ...

Things That Make You Go Hmmm...

[Cail]

No hmmm here. The second I tell anyone else how to live, you might have something. But an out-of-context quote sure ain't it.

[Hashi Lebwohl]

I have discovered that the formatting of quotation marks, apostrophes, ellipses (the three dots ... ), and hyphens often mess up when quoting. I have to go through my quote, looking at the punctuation detail, until I verify that all of them have been corrected.

[Avatar]

Seriously - I copied and pasted my post after it got borked again. Perhaps a problem with quote tags.

So some stupid software update now prevents anybody from posting anything with non-standard characters in it.

Best solution is to paste your text in here: utils.paranoiaworks.org/diacriticsremover/ and click the "Remove diacritics" button, then copy it out and paste it in here.

Hope that helps.

--A