Meaninglessness

[aliantha]

Yeah, as opposed to:
"Wait! That usually only happens on Wednesdays. But today is Tuesday! It's a miracle!!"

Okay, Mr. Smart Guy. You know what I'm talking about.

Actually, if I understand your definition, the difference I see between it and what I just said is quantitative, not qualitative. For me, it's the same thing.

I understand that. And I am aware that you won't believe in miracles/magic 'til the Universe hits you upside the head with one -- and even then, you'll find a way to disbelieve.

[DukkhaWaynhim]

It's easy to determine when an event is truly a miracle. It has a tangy zip to it.

dw

[ussusimiel]

Thanks Avatar, Cambo, Z, ali, Vraith, Fist, Orlion and dw for your responses. I hope Fist doesn't mind his tread being hijacked, if he does we can always split it .

What I like most about the 'experiences' I have heard about and touched on myself is not that they are 'supernatural' but rather, once you get over their novelty, how ordinary they are. Beware the person trumpeting their 'extraordinary' experiences, chances are that person is a charlatan. It is much more likely that the old lady sitting quietly in the corner, who all her life has has had access to inexplicable knowledge about people, is the real deal. To her it will be ordinary because it has always been that way.

And Fist is right (I like agreeing with Fist, it makes me feel safe ) if it is not your experience then in no way should you base any of your decisions on it. In fact, I would go further and say that everybody should (I know I do) aim to have the supreme sense of groundedness that people like Fist have in themselves. (Fist will correct me if I am guessing wrong about this.) Grounded people trust themselves implicitly. This is a tremendous boon. It means that life is being lived from the get-go and in the end that is really what we are here for. (To repeat the old refrain: we are spiritual beings on a human journey.)

The ground (and by extension I also mean the body) is the place to start. It is from there that all the rest can be properly explored: healing, energy, dreams, Angels, psychic abilities etc. Engaging with these potentials without being grounded is asking for trouble. If it is an attempt to excape the realities of existence it will be inauthentic and probably of little or no value.

I meant to refine the ideas in your earlier post about languageless toddlers. Babies begin to understand language much earlier than the age of 2 -- they just can't form the words themselves. Babies younger than a year old understand simple commands -- "wave bye-bye," "no," etc. (I once heard of a kid, perhaps 18 months old, who would repeat "no no no" aloud as he crossed the room to the thing he knew he wasn't supposed to touch. Laughing Clearly he knew what "no" meant; he just didn't have the impulse control to stop himself from doing something he wasn't supposed to do.)

Agreed, ali. I wouldn't even begin to speculate when we actually begin to get a handle on language. Earlier rather than later would be my guess. And in saying that the period of the pre-linguistic that I am referring to starts at conception (let's not stray into past-lives, that will definitely warrant another thread ). Our birth is probably the most powerful experience that we have before we have the language to express it. This is why rebirthing work is so focused on the physical.

And yet Western religions, by and large, accept angels, and have canonized *some* people who have had the kinds of experiences you describe. The only difference I see between Church-sanctioned visions of the Virgin, and visitations to others by other gods/goddesses, is one of interpretation.

Again I agree with you. The difficulties that I see most religions having is with the emphasis on the body. Most religions rightly fear the power of the body (especially the female body) and go to great lengths to control it. All the potentials that I speak of inevitably flow from the body (we can't be here without it). Some of the stuff I am talking about is literally demonised by some religions. And countless wise women (witches) over the centuries have been burned at the stake for daring to embrace their power (but of course you know all this, being a wise woman yourself )

u.

[Fist and Faith]

Sounds to me, ali, that your mind is at least as made up on what I will accept as proof of certain things as you accuse me of having my mind made up. Hehe

[aliantha]

Sounds to me, ali, that your mind is at least as made up on what I will accept as proof of certain things as you accuse me of having my mind made up. Hehe

Definitely.

(but of course you know all this, being a wise woman yourself )

You are exactly right!

(I like agreeing with Fist, it makes me feel safe )

(Second time today I've had occasion to use that emoticon! )

[Vraith]

The difficulties that I see most religions having is with the emphasis on the body. Most religions rightly fear the power of the body (especially the female body) and go to great lengths to control it.

Not to ignore all the rest of what you said, but it is a constant point I try to make [IRL] to people and they never get it...and it's basically what you say here, slightly varied: the "Spirit is willing but the Flesh is weak" thing...total doo-doo. In peeps who believe this, it's actually their spirits that are weak and/or unwilling...otherwise they'd not give in to things merely of the flesh.

And [to kinda connect to topic]: It's actually pretty amazing, if you really pay attention and dig, how much that does have meaning...even if not eternal...arises/emerges from the body.

[Fist and Faith]

Sounds to me, ali, that your mind is at least as made up on what I will accept as proof of certain things as you accuse me of having my mind made up. Hehe

Definitely.

So then, as far as I can tell, I'm rubber and you're glue.

(I like agreeing with Fist, it makes me feel safe )

(Second time today I've had occasion to use that emoticon! )

u, you are very wise. *bow*

ali, otoh, is cruisin'.

Thanks Avatar, Cambo, Z, ali, Vraith, Fist, Orlion and dw for your responses. I hope Fist doesn't mind his tread being hijacked, if he does we can always split it .

Let's hope it doesn't come to that!!

What I like most about the 'experiences' I have heard about and touched on myself is not that they are 'supernatural' but rather, once you get over their novelty, how ordinary they are. Beware the person trumpeting their 'extraordinary' experiences, chances are that person is a charlatan. It is much more likely that the old lady sitting quietly in the corner, who all her life has has had access to inexplicable knowledge about people, is the real deal. To her it will be ordinary because it has always been that way.

Ah! A line of thinking and being I appreciate! Here's some quotes:

One time I finished my best-ever pommel horse routine and walked over happily to take the tape off my wrists. Soc beckoned me and said, “The routine looked satisfactory, but you did a very sloppy job taking the tape off. Remember, every-moment satori.”

If you continue this simple practice every day, you will obtain some wonderful power. Before you attain it, it is something wonderful, but after you attain it, it is nothing special.

To have some deep feeling for Buddhism is not the point; we just do what we should do, like eating supper and going to bed. This is Buddhism.

And I wish I could find the one that goes something like:

"Master, do you practice the Way?"
"I wear my robe. I eat my rice."

Everybody should aim to have the supreme sense of groundedness. Grounded people trust themselves implicitly. This is a tremendous boon. It means that life is being lived from the get-go and in the end that is really what we are here for.

This is an extraordinary way of wording one of the most important of all concepts! I can't even tell you how much I love this!

[Avatar]

I get the sense ussusimiel is pointing more towards mystic experience, which is generally held to be ineffable. Doesn't stop mystics writing screeds upon screeds about their experiences though

We'd have to clarify mystical though...for me, mystical is two tabs of acid and 24 hours on a beach or a mountain.

--A

[ussusimiel]

We'd have to clarify mystical though...for me, mystical is two tabs of acid and 24 hours on a beach or a mountain.

--A

And on a serious note (something I can't help myself with ) the two experiences are so close as to be indistinguishable. As Fist might say, if you can't tell the difference then there is none.

Interestingly, the initial rebirthing work was done using LSD (the good stuff from the 6o's). Then, when it became illegal, the holotropic breathwork method was developed.

Thanks for the quotes, Fist. One of my own favourites is:

Before enlightenment chop wood carry water.
After enlightenment chop wood carry water.

Fist, accepting the gift honours the giver (and done in such a (don't laugh!) humble and modest way too!)

u.

[danlo]

My favorite, along these lines, is "Before you are wise, after you are wise. In between you are otherwise."---Osho the Fool

[Cambo]

I get the sense ussusimiel is pointing more towards mystic experience, which is generally held to be ineffable. Doesn't stop mystics writing screeds upon screeds about their experiences though

We'd have to clarify mystical though...for me, mystical is two tabs of acid and 24 hours on a beach or a mountain.

--A

That's as valid a mystical experience as any. My second ever transcendent mystical experience was on magic mushrooms.

As for definitions, I'd say very loosely that mystical is that which radically removes the ego from consensus reality.

[Avatar]

I'd say very loosely that mystical is that which radically removes the ego from consensus reality.

I like that. It doesn't have to even be a radical separation from that reality. But I like the distinction that maintains the ego as a coherent thing.

If you'd said that "diminishes" the ego, (or something along those lines...diminish is not exactly the word I'm looking for), I would have had problems with it.

--A

[Cambo]

I'd say very loosely that mystical is that which radically removes the ego from consensus reality.

I like that. It doesn't have to even be a radical separation from that reality. But I like the distinction that maintains the ego as a coherent thing.

If you'd said that "diminishes" the ego, (or something along those lines...diminish is not exactly the word I'm looking for), I would have had problems with it.

--A

Well, diminishing the ego, or at least diminishing the ego's hold on one's consciousness, is the stated aim of many mystics, and lots of mystical techniques, particularly meditation, are constructed with that in mind.

But a definition of mysticism would be too narrow if it excluded experiences where the ego is pretty much left alone- such as my experiences with psychedelics and my early spontaneous experiences. Wasn't until I started meditating that active mastery of the ego became a factor.

[Avatar]

I've never had that "loss of ego" thing with psychedelics. My ego is always prominent in any experience...I always seem to have a full awareness of my "self" as a discrete entity, separate from everything else.

--A

[Cambo]

I've never had that "loss of ego" thing with psychedelics. My ego is always prominent in any experience...I always seem to have a full awareness of my "self" as a discrete entity, separate from everything else.

--A

Same with me. But I've heard tell of unitary experiences on psychedelics. Usually with high doses. It was a common reported experience in experiments by folks like Leary and Tart, and their doses were about as high as I've ever heard of.

(edit) I meant "same with me" only in regards to psychedelics. I've definitely had some non-egoic experiences without drugs.

[Fist and Faith]

Something to aspire to, eh?

[Cambo]

Not for me, anymore. At least, unless I decide to go out Aldous Huxley style and get LSD injected on my deathbed.

Unitary consciousness is definitely something I aspire to when I'm meditating, though .

[Fist and Faith]

I'm interested in what happens when all senses and thought is removed, as is the goal of meditation, I guess. But I'm not interested enough to bother. I imagine it's a lot like dreamless sleep. Maybe they refresh us in similar ways?

[aliantha]

There's been research into that. I think the brainwave patterns are very similar.

[Vraith]

I'm interested in what happens when all senses and thought is removed, as is the goal of meditation, I guess. But I'm not interested enough to bother. I imagine it's a lot like dreamless sleep. Maybe they refresh us in similar ways?

There are certainly [meaning actual studies and evidence] effects on refreshment/energy/concentration/memory/learning/creativity. And as Ali says meditative states have parallel wave-presence/structure with various sleep stages.
But, there are differences: most particularly, in meditation [as opposed to sleep] there is almost always a stacking, a strong presence of other wave-patterns in addition to the base depending on the kind and purpose of the meditation. [and the skill/practice of the meditator].