The Mahdoubt

[burgs]

Actually, humorous as it is, Kevin's not such a bad idea after all.

At the very least, it's worth a chapter of some crafty fan fiction.

[richardb]

The one thing that struck me was that the ramen was sure for a moment that he knew her. He made comments that for a momement she appeared someone esle. Someone HE KNEW.

I dispute that he KNEW her. I don't think that that is implied at all. What happened is that the Ramen saw 'someone else' for a moment. But not someone that he knew.[/quote]

Read it again. He fumbles for a moment saying 'I thought...' or 'it seemed' (can't remember without the book in front of me, which indicated that it was someone he knew. Besides, if he thought he saw someone he did not know, then he would simply be seing 'someone' for the first time, right? Therefore if it was not someone he thought he was familiar with, what would cause him such consternation?
Anyhow, that was how I read it. I'll look again.

[richardb]

"She serves?" He sounded surprised. "Yet she is -" He hesitated. "There is that about her which -" Then he shook his head. "Perhaps I am mistaken. To the Mahdoubt, he added, "I crave your pardon. My concerns have misled me."[/quote]

Should have read further to find this! To me, this does indicate recognition. If he simply saw 'someone else' who he had no recogition of, why would it surprise him that she serves? That very first statement indicates that he thought he saw someone he could not believe as serving (like Esmer).
Why would he say that if he simply saw someone who then 'changed'? The people of the land serve, that is the norm, so why be surprised unless you saw someone you did not expect, who you would not think of as serving.
It seems clear to me that he did think he recognized her for a moment.
Even more as the 'yet she is' part. She is what? What would he believe she was on a first meeting if he did not think it was not a first meeting?

[wayfriend]

The one thing that struck me was that the ramen was sure for a moment that he knew her. He made comments that for a momement she appeared someone esle. Someone HE KNEW.

I dispute that he KNEW her. I don't think that that is implied at all. What happened is that the Ramen saw 'someone else' for a moment. But not someone that he knew.

Read it again. He fumbles for a moment saying 'I thought...' or 'it seemed' (can't remember without the book in front of me, which indicated that it was someone he knew. Besides, if he thought he saw someone he did not know, then he would simply be seing 'someone' for the first time, right? Therefore if it was not someone he thought he was familiar with, what would cause him such consternation?
Anyhow, that was how I read it. I'll look again.

Please see how I have taken the passages in question and posted them above.
» or go here

[wayfriend]

( richardb, please add a new reply rather than re-write an earlier reply which someone had already replied to. )

[dlbpharmd]

WF, I think Richardb slid his reply in before yours. He has a double post.

[burgs]

It's absolutely amazing how much text has been generated by the brief appearance of this ambiguous character.

All we know about her is that her real essence may be masked by some type of illusory effect, the Ramen seems to think that her real essence is something that would not be servile, and that Linden starts to "see" her more clearly, with Donaldson using the adjective "numinous" to describe her. Numinous, btw, means, "having a strong religious or spiritual quality; indicating or suggesting the presence of a divinity".

So now we have the Elohim (God in the Hebrew Bible),

Spoiler

Theomach

, and the Mahdoubt. We know the nature of the Elohim, but we don't know the nature of The Mahdoubt or

Spoiler

the Theomach

other than SRD has rather ham-handedly given us some obvious clues as to "essence". In other words, the Mahdoubt isn't Kevin, or anything remotely human.

[wayfriend]

WF, I think Richardb slid his reply in before yours. He has a double post.

(Pardon me. It looked like his new post was in response to mine.)

Numinous, btw, means, "having a strong religious or spiritual quality; indicating or suggesting the presence of a divinity".

It may also simply mean "glowing" (as in like an angel).

Consider how Donaldson uses this term:

However, there were no clouds upon the Graveler and the eh-Brand. They walked buoyantly to the place where Linden and Covenant sat; and Linden thought that some of the night's silver still clung to them, giving them a numinous cast even in daylight, like a new dimension added to their existence.

The wound bled argent: all his body was ablaze. Fire fountained from his gaping hurt, spat gouts and plumes of numinous and incandescent deflagration, untainted by any darkness or venom. During that moment, he looked like he was still alive.

I think it is a mistake to believe that SRD is infering something divine about the Mahdoubt. (But you never know!)

[burgs]

Good point.

I may have been getting ahead of myself. Knowing that the Elohim are involved in this in more than one way, with multiple agendas, and knowing about

Spoiler

the Theomach, and the origin of the word

may have caused me to do what we are all doing regardig the Mahdoubt: looking for anything, even the placement of a comma, to figure her out - and hope that once we have figured her out that she fits into the mold we've already created for her.

I should know better. Pre-conceived notions, in this series, will be dangerous. He's really going to mess with us.

[Avatar]

Say that again. (And welcome back. )

--A

[Borillar]

A discussion about Amok in the "Thomas Covenant" Forum got me thinking once again about the Mahdoubt. I can't help thinking at every turn (and it's already been discussed at length) that the Mahdoubt rings some of the exact same bells as Amok, in particular the Bloodguard/Haruchai's seeming indifference to both "people". But I want to play this out some more again.

We know that the Haruchai, while not wielders of lore themselves, are more immune to the effects (deception, coercion, confusion) of lore than others. For example, the Haruchai are impervious to the geas of Kasreyn, immune to Kevin's Dust, more perceptive of the Sunbane's aura than the regular Land dwellers, and instantly aware of Amok's nature (I'm speculating it's possible they had never actually seen Amok before, but simply knew at sight what he was). Yet given their added perception, the Bloodguard/Haruchai do not perceive either Amok or the Mahdoubt as a threat of any kind (they basically shrug in response to any questions about them), suggesting they know what they really are. In contrast, we've seen their reaction to Anele, who they perceive as a threat due to his innate Earthpower, yet the Mahdoubt, who is obviously a special creature with some sort of power, does not similarly alarm them. This is my point: it suggests their acceptance of the Mahdoubt comes out of something they have learned to respect, much like they trusted Amok due to their respect for Kevin.

Now, I believe SRD when he says Kevin's Lore is a "dead letter" at this point, which suggests that the Mahdoubt is not a Ward or something similar. But neither do I know what to make of this similarity.

[Xar]

A discussion about Amok in the "Thomas Covenant" Forum got me thinking once again about the Mahdoubt. I can't help thinking at every turn (and it's already been discussed at length) that the Mahdoubt rings some of the exact same bells as Amok, in particular the Bloodguard/Haruchai's seeming indifference to both "people". But I want to play this out some more again.

We know that the Haruchai, while not wielders of lore themselves, are more immune to the effects (deception, coercion, confusion) of lore than others. For example, the Haruchai are impervious to the geas of Kasreyn, immune to Kevin's Dust, more perceptive of the Sunbane's aura than the regular Land dwellers, and instantly aware of Amok's nature (I'm speculating it's possible they had never actually seen Amok before, but simply knew at sight what he was). Yet given their added perception, the Bloodguard/Haruchai do not perceive either Amok or the Mahdoubt as a threat of any kind (they basically shrug in response to any questions about them), suggesting they know what they really are. In contrast, we've seen their reaction to Anele, who they perceive as a threat due to his innate Earthpower, yet the Mahdoubt, who is obviously a special creature with some sort of power, does not similarly alarm them. This is my point: it suggests their acceptance of the Mahdoubt comes out of something they have learned to respect, much like they trusted Amok due to their respect for Kevin.

Now, I believe SRD when he says Kevin's Lore is a "dead letter" at this point, which suggests that the Mahdoubt is not a Ward or something similar. But neither do I know what to make of this similarity.

Still, although the Haruchai are generally more impervious to lore than regular Land-dwellers, this doesn't mean they cannot be affected by certain effects. I tend to consider the Haruchai's resilience to lore in a different way - they certainly have a higher "threshold" past which they are affected by lore, and at the same time I believe their resistance applies more to overt manifestations of lore. The Haruchai being, after all, all but "subtle" themselves, both in deed and in word. On the other hand, their minds are inflexible, and thus they could probably be more easily tricked with subtle uses of lore, simply because their minds would not be flexible enough to acknowledge a difference. So, a subtle effect - say, for example, a subtle illusion developed to hide one's true nature - could simply go unnoticed by the Haruchai mind. It could be as if the Mahdoubt were constantly sending the message "I'm not important, you won't pay much attention to me" over and over again.

As for who she is... well,we know that, according to this:

She serves?" He sounded surprised. "Yet she is -" He hesitated. "There is that about her which -" Then he shook his head. "Perhaps I am mistaken. To the Mahdoubt, he added, "I crave your pardon. My concerns have misled me."

She is a female entity whose appearance seems to be all but servile... or at least, whose behaviour sometimes gives hints that she is not the servant others think she is ("There is that about her which..."). I tend to believe that the puzzlement is due to a sensation, more than truly "seeing someone else" with a different appearance. The Mahdoubt seems to be much more subtle than that. It's weird, but the more I write, the more she sounds to me a lot like an Elohim, or anyway an entity used to command and not to serve, who is for some reason deliberately pretending she is this mysterious Mahdoubt. Some mentioned she could be an Appointed Elohim, but I would rather imagine her either as an exiled Elohim (whether by choice or by force, I can't say) who is hiding and perhaps biding her time. Of course, the idea of her being Kastenessen's long-lost love who somehow survived and trascended her mortal nature to become "something more" thanks to her bond with Kastenessen and their closeness (perhaps Kastenessen himself granted her a measure of power in the form of a long - or even everlasting - life?) is interesting, but she lacks a reason why she would have decided to return to the Land and take on the role of the Mahdoubt - unless of course she were aware of Esmer and thought she could (or had to) stop him (his responsibility, since he would be her grandchild?).

[wayfriend]

This is my point: it suggests their acceptance of the Mahdoubt comes out of something they have learned to respect, much like they trusted Amok due to their respect for Kevin.

And who is probably the only person that the Haruchai revere more than Kevin?

It's weird, but the more I write, the more she sounds to me a lot like an Elohim, or anyway an entity used to command and not to serve, who is for some reason deliberately pretending she is this mysterious Mahdoubt

Could being Dead be a 'that about her which'? Could some sort of uber-Lord induce surprise at their menial service?

Hint: the same person fits all of these bills.

[ur-bane]

Are you saying that the Mahdoubt may be a man? And not just any man mind you, but THE man?

No comment at the moment. This must be pondered. ALthough I am very interested in other evidence that may have drawn you to this particular conclusion. There must be more than the few pages of text in Runes that lead you there, Wayfriend.

[drew]

Wouldn't it be crazy, if SRD just dropped the Mahdoubt, left her at Revelstone, never mentioned her again...?

Man that would suck, we've got pages and pages of good stuff here.

[ur-bane]

Then we would have to dedicate pages and pages as to why she disappeared...

[wayfriend]

Are you saying that the Mahdoubt may be a man? And not just any man mind you, but THE man?

No comment at the moment. This must be pondered. ALthough I am very interested in other evidence that may have drawn you to this particular conclusion. There must be more than the few pages of text in Runes that lead you there, Wayfriend.

» kevinswatch.ihugny.com/phpBB2/viewtopic ... &start=166

Which makes more sense after reading [2] here:
» kevinswatch.ihugny.com/phpBB2/viewtopic ... &start=142

[ur-bane]

After I re-read your posts, and contemplate the idea, I will be dredging it back up. I need to think on this one, as honestly, I missed that entire portion of the discussion.
Expect some thoughts tomorrow.

[Nerdanel]

Watch out, I have come up with a new, never-been-mentioned, radical theory! I think I like this one more than my previous the Mahdoubt favorite Esmer's hypothetical sister.

I think the Mahdoubt wears clashing colors because she is unable to perceive any color at all, only shapes. The eyes of her disguise are differently colored for the same reason. It may be that the only reason her skin tone is remotely plausible is because she "lifted" it from an existing source. Otherwise she could have been like the ur-viles who I believe were attempting to make Vain look human but but were clueless about the correct spectroscopic properties.

...Yes, I think the Mahdoubt is a Demondim. We know they weren't always evil and could once be described as "powerful and austere". Later some were responsible for making the Waynhim. I think the Mahdoubt is to the Demondim outside Revelstone as the Waynhim are to the ur-viles. Like the Waynhim, the Mahdoubt has dedicated herself to the service of the Land. I think the Waynhim probably got the idea from her or those like her.

I think the Haruchai are unable to perceive the truth about the Mahdoubt because her power surpasses them and she doesn't want to be noticed. For that reason I think she has also learned to move her eyes to indicate looking at people, although she doesn't seem to have that completely mastered, as seen in the scene when only her other eye turns to look at Linden.

There are also indications that the Mahdoubt and the normal Demondim both have a connection to a kind of darkness that's not just absence of light.

Paled by sunlight, the flaring of power from their hands was barely visible to ordinary sight [...] And it left behind stains of midnight which lingered in the air as if the inherent vitriol of the Demondim had burned holes in the substance of reality.

Still shadows seemed to trail about the Mahdoubt like wisps of fog.

[I'm Murrin]

But was it ever said that the Demondim were blind like their offspring? The Demondim are spirits trapped halfway between corporeal and non-corporeal form. The Demondim take any body they find, they're not limited to a single shape like the ur-viles are, so I would guess they wouldn't have the same physical limitations either.