A Game of Thrones

[Zarathustra]

Looking around the Internet a bit, it seems there's quite a lot of dissatisfaction with episode 3. People are making some really good points. The following is a mix of theirs and some I've noticed myself:

Is Theon really a "good man?" Just because he sacrificed himself at the end, does it really make up for killing a couple kids, beheading Rodrick, betraying the Starks, taking over Winterfell, etc.? I suppose he did help Sansa, too, so that counts in his favor. And he got tortured a lot. But does suffering redeem you?

Time after time, we see the characters--or the producers--making dumb choices, merely for cinematic effect. Why did the Dothraki charge with ordinary weapons, when we know that the Dead are only killed by Valyrian steel and Dragonglass? Why did Dany land her dragon in the middle of the dead, without blasting out a larger safe zone? Just so we could see the Dead swarm the dragon? How did Arya come sailing out of no where, when the Night King was surrounded by Walkers? Why didn't Bran tell Theon to hold on a second, if he knew that Arya was coming?

We also see main characters, time after time, completely surrounded by an overwhelming number of Dead, only to have the camera cut away so we can't see how they survive, and the next time we see them, they're back to fighting one-on-one.

In the initial Dead charge, all the main characters are on the front line, with no shields or armor, and they all survive. How?

Why didn't Dany's dragon come back and help her out from above, after shaking off the Dead? Just so Jorah could have his death scene?

Lots of stupidity in this episode. The more I think about it, the less I like it. It's all gimmick, fake-out, and cop-out.

[I'm Murrin]

As far as the Dothraki charge - it's the Others, the white walkers, who can only be harmed by Valyrian steel or dragonglass. (And they're extremely vulnerable to it, which is probably why they did no fighting themselves and all the stuff Dany brought went to waste.) The wights can be killed with ordinary weapons and (especially) fire.

[wayfriend]

I for one don't think this is the ending that GRRM intended it to be. I think it was repackaged as something simple but crowd-pleasing when it should have been more deep and complicated. I think GRRM is rolliing over in his pile of money.

Melisandre - are we supposed to believe that she knew Arya was going to kill the Night King all along? That all of Dondarion's resurrections were for that one moment to save Arya? Doesn't pass the sniff test.

But the plot is one thing. But the cinematography another. It was a brilliant episode to watch. I particularly enjoyed how the NK nullified the dragons with blinding snow - awesome move. I love how Arya fought. I love how Lyanna Mormont got her moment. I loved Jorah's end. I loved how the blue-fire dragon laid waste to Winterfell like that. I loved that it looked like John Snow would reach the Night King, but then couldn't. I loved Tyrion and Sansa sharing a bit of affection.

What we saw was really, really good.

But if Samwell Tarly, Brienne, Jaime, and Grey Worm somehow lived through that battle, then all plausibility is gone.

[I'm Murrin]

I mean, Beric Dondarrion is a very obvious "this isn't how it would have happened", since he's been dead in the books for a while.

[dlbpharmd]

As far as the Dothraki charge - it's the Others, the white walkers, who can only be harmed by Valyrian steel or dragonglass. (And they're extremely vulnerable to it, which is probably why they did no fighting themselves and all the stuff Dany brought went to waste.) The wights can be killed with ordinary weapons and (especially) fire.

Jon says in S7E7 that wights can be killed by burning or by dragonglass.

[dlbpharmd]

Is Theon really a "good man?" Just because he sacrificed himself at the end, does it really make up for killing a couple kids, beheading Rodrick, betraying the Starks, taking over Winterfell, etc.? I suppose he did help Sansa, too, so that counts in his favor. And he got tortured a lot. But does suffering redeem you?

I don't know - did it work for Thomas Covenant?

but to your point, I had the sense that Bran said that to Theon to inspire him to make that charge against the NK to buy a bit more time. I'm not sure it was genuine. In contrast, think of the scene where Meera says goodbye to Bran at Winterfell. Now here was someone who was truly heroic, who saw her brother sacrifice himself for Bran, and who saw Hodor, Summer, and the old 3-eyed raven killed, and yet Bran didn't seem particularly grateful to her. I don't think Bran can feel that sort of emotion any longer.

Melisandre is another complex character - just look at everything she did, including burning Shireen. She never seemed to feel any remorse, but she did affect the outcome. I don't think anyone would try to argue that she's a good woman, though.

[dlbpharmd]

I for one don't think this is the ending that GRRM intended it to be. I think it was repackaged as something simple but crowd-pleasing when it should have been more deep and complicated. I think GRRM is rolliing over in his pile of money.

Melisandre - are we supposed to believe that she knew Arya was going to kill the Night King all along? That all of Dondarion's resurrections were for that one moment to save Arya? Doesn't pass the sniff test.

But the plot is one thing. But the cinematography another. It was a brilliant episode to watch. I particularly enjoyed how the NK nullified the dragons with blinding snow - awesome move. I love how Arya fought. I love how Lyanna Mormont got her moment. I loved Jorah's end. I loved how the blue-fire dragon laid waste to Winterfell like that. I loved that it looked like John Snow would reach the Night King, but then couldn't. I loved Tyrion and Sansa sharing a bit of affection.

What we saw was really, really good.

But if Samwell Tarly, Brienne, Jaime, and Grey Worm somehow lived through that battle, then all plausibility is gone.

I don't for a moment believe that this is the way GRRM intended this plotline to conclude. Maybe that's why he can't seem to finish the books. Everyone will just say "but the show is so much better!"

And, I have to admit, there are a lot of things about the show that are better than the books. For example, I was just talking with someone earlier when the subject came up about Arya serving as Tywin's cupbearer at Harrenhall, and I reminded him that in the books, she's Roose Bolton's servant.

But, those scenes between Maisie and Charles Dance were amazing, and IMO are so much better than GRRM's version.

I'm totally fine not having Lady Stoneheart - although, who knows how great that plotline might have turned out? Only GRRM knows.

I don't think Mel knew of Arya's destiny in Season 3. I think she simply saw the eyes staring back at her, as the scene was depicted.

I mean, Beric Dondarrion is a very obvious "this isn't how it would have happened", since he's been dead in the books for a while.

Huh. I'd completely forgotten that.

[Sorus]

WARNING: SERIOUS SPOILERS.


And I know that the Hound is scared of fire, but I'm sick of seeing him whimper in a corner. We've seen that already. I thought this was supposed to show how they've grown. Wouldn't it have been badass to see him overcome this fear at last?

I wanted to reach through my screen and smack him upside the head. I'm guessing they will wrap up his character arc with an epic battle vs. his brother. Though I hope they won't be that predictable, especially since I question how meaningful that would be at this point. I mean, they sent Gregor Clegane's head to Dorne, right? I know there was some doubt over whether it was really his - one way or another, I'm sure Qyburn has a stack of spares down in his build-a-zombie workshop - but where does he fit on the undead scale? He's more than a wight, but how much of his past life was retained?

Maybe the real moral of the story is that you shouldn't mess with necromancy.

And Ghost. He was with the army - then what? I know he can take care of himself, but you'd think he'd be at Jon's side, only Jon up and flew away on a dragon. How rude.

The lack of frontrunners among the body count definitely didn't feel like the way GRRM would have played it, but I'm sure there will be plenty of time for it to go up in the next three episodes. Maybe they're trying to lull us into a false sense of security.

[wayfriend]

I'm guessing they will wrap up his character arc with an epic battle vs. his brother. Though I hope they won't be that predictable, especially since I question how meaningful that would be at this point.

That's the sad thing. The way they are concluding this series apparently isn't based on all of those details we've been paying attention to all of these years. Which basically means all bets are off - there's no way to make an educated guess as to what will happen. We can only be sure that it'll be glitzy rather than just.

If Tyrion is a deserving man -- and he is -- his story arc should end with having a position of respect and having a love in his life. I don't have a lot of hope of this happening now. If Jaime is to be redeemed it should involve overcoming the dishonor of being the Kingslayer. Doubt it will happen now. And the Hound needs to escape the shadow of his brother, and fighting him is exactly the wrong way to do it -- but who knows now?

It's all gone poof. I will have fun watching it, but I ain't gonna worry about how it ends any longer.

[Zarathustra]

The Clegane brothers will fight, or at least have some kind of reckoning. Tyrion will end up with Sansa. Jaime will kill Cersei.

Martin has said that the HBO ending won't be very much different from his own. It's based on his outline.

The details have been lost because the books haven't been written. The producers literally have an outline, and that's what they've been shooting.

There is actually quite a bit of room left for a lot to happen. Three long episodes. With the Night King wrapped up, I think we are in for quite a bit of character resolution--which could be why so many of the main characters survived the battle. There's not much left to do, action-wise. Maybe one more minor battle with Cersei. But I expect twists and character moments. I really haven't seen anything in this season to make us suspect that the characters aren't going to be handled with respect and care. I don't like how this one battle was depicted, but so far all the characters are on track to an end that still has the potential to be amazing.

[Zarathustra]

Is Theon really a "good man?" Just because he sacrificed himself at the end, does it really make up for killing a couple kids, beheading Rodrick, betraying the Starks, taking over Winterfell, etc.? I suppose he did help Sansa, too, so that counts in his favor. And he got tortured a lot. But does suffering redeem you?

I don't know - did it work for Thomas Covenant?

Covenant didn't murder anyone, much less children. He didn't betray his "family." He did more good than one last stand. And ultimately, he stood up to himself, not some monster. I think that's the only way to achieve redemption, not through good deeds or suffering, but by confronting yourself, accepting/admitting your flaws, and making yourself into something better/stronger despite having a dark side.

Is Covenant a good man? No. He's both good and evil, just like all of us.

[Cagliostro]

Yeah, I think everything is going to end all nice and new and neat. All the ugliness seems to be being swept aside after they took over the main writing duties, even though there is still room for some unpleasantness, but we've honed all the characters down to the bare essentials, and everybody has a purpose in the gameplan the show runners have mapped out. I feel like I can see the wheels of this machine, whereas earlier, when I was a little more bored, at least it felt like high fantasy. Now it is much more exciting and fun and glitzy, and don't struggle with "who the hell is that?" anymore, but it also feels less satisfying. To throw a metaphor in, it is kinda like the difference between eating a burger made at home versus some place like Red Robin. A burger at home is very satisfying, and enjoyable, but takes some work. Red Robin, everything is genetically modified and chemically altered to make your taste buds as pleased as possible, but feels just a little artificial.
I'm ready to be surprised, and hopefully I'll eat these words. I liked the last episode quite a bit, because rarely have I felt the tension that they set up, especially the waiting for the other side to show up. I've never been in a battle, and I've never thought about how excruciating it must be waiting for those that are probably going to kill you to show up. They did an amazing job with that, even if the battle scenes felt more of a shift to "this is what makes an exciting battle scene on film." I've not read the books despite having the first two books for a while now, but don't know that I have time these days to "make my burger at home."

[Sorus]

Martin has said that the HBO ending won't be very much different from his own. It's based on his outline.

It will be interesting to see how the whole Aegon Targaryen situation gets sorted out. Series vs. book, I mean. Jon Snow probably won't be drastically different, but -

(book spoiler)

Spoiler

The survival of Rhaegar Targaryen and Elia Martell's son will cause some complications. Especially if they both have the same name.

[wayfriend]

It will be interesting to see how the whole Aegon Targaryen situation gets sorted out.

How many times has John Snow said that he never wanted to be King? They would have to work hard to create a pointless conflict involving that. But if stupid doesn't rule the day, he either let's Danaerys be Queen and doesn't mention it, or he marries his niece like the Targaryen's of yore and it's not relevant. And let's face it - that's the sappiest of all possible endings.

[Sorus]

My guess is that Daenerys will end up on the throne, and Jon will marry someone else and their children will be the heirs.

"The dragon has three heads" prophecy makes more sense with the book version. Who is the third on the show?

[Zarathustra]

I disagree that Jon and Dany getting married and ruling together would be the sappiest of all possible endings. The two main characters fulfilling their Destiny's isn't sappy. This is what their individual journeys have been preparing them for all along.

Besides, after the hell that these people have been through, I don't see a problem with a sappy ending.

[Sorus]

I think Jon and Daenerys have chemistry together, but I'm still stuck on the aunt/nephew bit - plus Daenerys can't have children, so there would still be chaos and drama and whatnot over who gets the throne after them.

[I'm Murrin]

I thought the general consensus among book fans was that Aegon is probably the "mummer's dragon" from the prophetic visions. I.e. a fake.

[Avatar]

Right, the books are going to be completely different - assuming the series is ever finished, something I sincerely doubt.

Yeah...I'm not exactly feeling hopeful on this score...

I mean, Beric Dondarrion is a very obvious "this isn't how it would have happened", since he's been dead in the books for a while.

And for that matter, so has the Hound.

--A

[I'm Murrin]

The Hound appears as a background character in one of Brienne's chapters after his supposed "death", although he's not specifically identified. (The gravedigger with the scarred face who was found dying and saved by the travelling Septon.)