Kevin's Watch

I don't know how seriously I take you Esmer, but I'm willing to give everybody the chance. (Hell, let's be fair...there is very little in the world that I'm even capable of taking seriously, for the simple reason that I know that it's all a collosal joke, and that everything depends on whether you have a sense of the punchline, and the sick sort of humour that will appreciate it.)

And I'm not sure I can refrain from disagreeing with you either, or simply assuming that you're right.

That would make me wrong, (maybe), and since I am all too aware of the unpleasant roles that ego, arrogance, even self-importance play in my life and more tellingly, my personality, I'm not sure I can discard them even for the purposes of this unusual hypothesis that you may be right.

Before we go any further though, how about a few examples of these energetic facts? Because to be honest, I can't think of anything much that isn't subject to disagreement.

So what are we defining here? Energetic facts? Other than possibly the physically objective ones, such as heat, say, I can't think of any really as I said.

--A

Es, unless the secret to immortality is in the form of a liquid, or maybe a cookie, I wont be able to understand what your talking about anyway. But I'll try.

Hang in there Marv, the fact that you want to try may be more than enough, and just absorbing the words and concepts with your eyes and brain may be enough to trigger a personal growth event....it will make sense and use of itself, if you intend it to.....just read it over and over.....the more questions you ask me or concepts you need clarified the more I can retrieve and assemble the necessary information to adequately explain this to you....My energy needs to feed off yourr energy, see?

So....Avatar, you get some, and after that, you have to agree to comply, temporarily, of course .....try the warriors task of allowing yourself to become someone you are not, eh? It's quite invigorating! And dare I say personally enlightening? Allowing yourself a chance to observe yourself as someone else? Try it, you'll like it.....


I've already stated one Energetic Fact: it is humanly possible to observe the flow of energy in the universe. In order to realize this truth, you must DO it, not think about it rationally and come to some logical conclusion, see? To prove this fact you must accomplish the feat, there is no other way to prove an Energetic Fact, which why, for now, it requires a suspension of disbelief, and a tacit agreement upon the terminology and conclusions drawn from direct experience.

Consider, it is an Energetic Fact that humans are capable of observing people, places, and events that are far removed from their physical location and beyond their personal experience. The CIA once had a Remote Viewing division, in which they proved beyond a shadow of a doubt was legitimate, but far too unreliable for their needs and desires, and of course, fiscal policies. The FBI, and police depts all across the country here and in the world out there rely heavily upon legitimate individuals who have the bona fide ability to observe crime scenes and identify criminals, and find lost or missing persons, dead and alive, solving crimes and closing cases with knowledge and information that they in no way could possibly be in possession of in any other way than being able to "intuit" "packets of energy" that are associated with the entirety of the crime scene and circumstances.

Now, certainly the world is overflowing with frauds and charlatans of this nature, but there are a few well documented and irrefutable individuals who have shown that we have capabilities that lay outside of our brains, and our bodies, and our physical ability to visually apprehend the world around us. One of our own members here, Kil Tyme?, if we are to believe him, has given us an example of this from what he thought was a dream, that entailed him envisioning something that later turned out to be a reality. I have experienced this myself on rare occasion, and so have many many others.

The point is, and it's one I've made before, that even if we expose every fraud out there, there still remains enough legitimate occurrences to give us the reassurances we need to personally explore these incredible possibilities. And it is also an Energetic Fact that we do not normally have enough personal energy to accomplish these feats, due to a complete and utter appropriation of all of our available energy into our daily lives, some of which lies scattered and dormant, but retrievable, on the inner surface of our luminous shell. Since we cannot take in more energy, nor lose any until death, we must find a way to re-appropriate our available energy from the scope of our personal activities and belief systems. Everything we do requires this energy, and the only way to retrieve or conserve it for such monumental feats of awareness is to eliminate certain activities, etc. that are not directly involved with our process of personal growth and evolution. It is an Energetic Fact that Self Importance is the biggest drain and receptor of our available energies, and is the singlemost causal factor in our inability to realize these truths about ourselves, and subsequently act upon them to further our growth of awareness beyond the obvious and limited physical visible world.

You of all people here Avatar possess the ability here to evaluate what I say, and challenge the integrity of those statements within the parameters they are created, and find any flaws in the structure I build based upon the materials and processes I define. Think of it like a class you are attending, and the ability to pass any tests based upon the content of the information provided requires you to comprehend it and evaluate it within the rules and definitions of its total substantive content. If we are studying the truths about the Ndbele tribe, we have to learn the meanings and usages of those words THEY use, usually contrary to any such usage or definition we currently hold, and usually in defiance of the world we know and the manner in which we define and describe it. This can be no different in a sense, but it still requires your obedience to the form and the process of the nature of this reality, this Energetic Fact that there is more to us than meets the eye, and more to the universe than the mind itself can comprehend rationally. Just play along, and when we're done we can throw down and duke it out, each of us speaking in our own language about things we know in the way we know it, like usual....come on man, you can do it!

So by playing to my self-importance, you seek to convince me to lay it aside for a while?

I'll play along. Of course, before we really get going, you'll allow me to point out that your energetic facts are assumptions at best, not the unarguable facts that you implied they would be.

However, for the sake of the game, I'm willing to assume that everything you say is true, with the proviso that my comments will be based on that assumption. In other words, "If we could really percieve... etc."

Ok, so posited.

Yes, everything we do requires energy. What next?

--A

I don't want to interject my self importance here, but I'm just trying to understand the terms being used (becuase you claim to be using a different language, yet I recognize some of your terms as the same exact words I use in my language).

"Energy," for instance. Is this the same stuff quantified in equations such as E=mc2? Or are you using a word from "my " language to mean some different concept in "your" language?

This is important, because if you're talking about the kind of energy scientists study, then it is indeed a fact that we witness energy flowing in the universe, and it should be an easy matter to verify what you're talking about through measurement. However, (as I suspect) if you are talking about something different from quantifiable, experimentally verifiable forms of energy which fit within the parameters and equations of known scientific truth, then it is a little disingenuous to appeal to our sense of familiarity by making claims like "it is humanly possible to observe the flow of energy in the universe," and then state that this can only be known by DOING it. Energy doesn't have to be observed to know that it has been transferred. I don't actually see magnetic fields or electrons flowing through the wiring of my house. But I know it is flowing.

I say this is "disingenuous" because it seems you're borrowing from the legitimacy of obvious scientific truths to describe something that is not quantifiable, experimentally verifiable, nor in fact physical at all. Such techniques are the hallmarks of pseudo-science. I know how to speak THAT language very well--a close study of the philosophy of science has given me a proficiency in this language.

So are you speaking my language, or yours? If so, why use scientific terms to talk about something nonphysical and irrational? Can't you make up your own word?

Okay, sematic technicalities out of the way, I AM open minded when it comes to these sorts of things. I think that consciousness itself transcends current science (but not ANY potential future science). I'm certainly not a Newtonian materialist. Whether or not I'm willing to give up my self importance--and whether I'm willing to accept that it's a necessary prerequisite for understanding you--is another matter. I believe you can have an open mind without undergoing some sort of "initiation" ritual. These are always the first steps of indoctrinization. (Funny how pseudo-science and indoctrinization so often go hand-in-hand.)

Why don't you just say what you mean and give up this "guru" role? We're not children here. Some of us have already studied (and experienced) what you're talking about.

Damn it, this thread's just another pyramid scheme, isn't it? Oh fie!

--A

Es, you might have eternity but i don't...yet!

I'm struggling with my self importance here, dude.

Edit: how come the poll only adds up to 99%?

ok, tazz, but this seems a little rushed to me, not sure I was prepared for it right now, we may need to "flesh this one out"....


Internal Silence. The Dialogue of the Mind. Thinking. The action and totality of our self importance. Constant observation, interpretation, and reaffirmation of our world and our lives, and our personalities we construct to interact with everything and everyone, including ourselves.

The power of our interpretation system enables us to perceive specific to our organism, and our internal dialogue assembles, supports and perpetuates this process. The world consists of only that which we are capable of observing and assembling relevant to our currently enabled sensory abilities. The blind man has a world that is surely lacking, in would that he could see, his ability to perceive increases, and so would his idea of the world itself increase. Now, being blind certainly increased the scope of his perception in other sensory areas, and may have even enabled his use of sensory capabilities those with sight are unlikely to utilize, but it is certain that when provided the usage of sensory capabilities beyond the ones currently enabled and utilized, ones world, and ones perspective, expands beyond its current definition, usually making the previous one invalid in the process.

Definitions change as knowledge increases, and perspective is expanded as a result of this, and consequently the scope and ability of our awareness to observe and interpret the world and oneself also expands and increases. Since we already know that if we knew more than we do, we would think differently, it only makes sense to only think about wanting to know more, realizing that at every moment, AT BEST, we are operating under an incomplete and inconclusive idea about the world and ourselves. Since the world is now a valid mystery, one now must regard oneself as a mystery within a mystery.

Attention. Yours, mine, societies. The things we choose to place it upon makes up our world, usually consisting of things that we have agreed with others exist in our environment. Items, ideas, events and even potential circumstance fills the void in our skulls incessantly and implacably. If we place our full attention on negative things, the world becomes a negative place, so on and so forth, it is the power of our attention itself that defines the objects and ideas of our world, and henceforth our ideas of ourselves and our beliefs in our abilities to observe and comprehend it.

The Luminous Shell. The Egg. Our total mass of energy as expressed as an organism within a Greater total mass of energy. Masses of energy composed of and moving within the totality of mass of all energies combined. The combination of masses does not comprise the totality of the Mass, they are comprised of it. We are comprised of it. That's not air you are breathing, it is a chemical substance, contained within, composed by and consisting of the energy of the greater Mass.

Odd that we know that there is no such thing as empty space, and the closest we have come to observing this is the space between the atoms themselves, all else then being comprised of same said atoms. dark matter, anti-matter, grey matter, heh, it's all of it just an active pot of boiling energy with little bubbles of energy growing and moving inside it, endlessly recycling itself and evolving itself in an utter state of perpetual fluctuation.

When total internal silence is achieved after gaining control of self-importance's domination over the internal dialogue, gaining valuable energy in the process, one can then proceed to groom the sensory ability of perceiving the energy of the universe as it flows. When this sense is enabled, the human being appears to the perceiver as a luminous egg, a bright ovoid sphere of bristling luminous fibres, fibres that are aware of themselves and the luminous fibres that correspondingly comprise the totality of the universe. We are made from these material fibres of energy just as we are legitimately made from the components of the periodic table, we are comprised of the world around us, just as the world around us is comprised of itself, ad infinitum. We can choose to comprehend the world in its organically observable manner, or in it's energetically observable manner. To choose the first entails a sharply focused, limited view of the world, while the latter provides a much more comprehensive and expansive observation of the universe, which can only enrich the detail and definition of the organically observable world, which, unlike the first, does not exclude but enriches the total view of both worlds, which is just one world, with many ways to perceive it. Being aware of all choices is critical before one can choose a valid preference.

We can only observe the universe as it is when we stop telling ourselves how it is, and allow it to reveal Itself to us. Placing our full attention upon internal silence is the path and the gate, beyond which we continue our journey to the secret......

Foul wrote:Damn it, this thread's just another pyramid scheme, isn't it? Oh fie!

...at least it's more interesting than Dianetics

danlo wrote:

Foul wrote:Damn it, this thread's just another pyramid scheme, isn't it? Oh fie!

...at least it's more interesting than Dianetics

Margainly so!

Really though, given the geneitc code and our ability to keep records these days....arent we all at least theoretically immortal?

I'll be back to this one, but for now Gunslinger, it depends how theoretically.

My identity is my consciousness. Unless consciousness (personality etc.) can be preserved also, then no.

--A

Avatar wrote:I'll be back to this one, but for now Gunslinger, it depends how theoretically.

My identity is my consciousness. Unless consciousness (personality etc.) can be preserved also, then no.

--A

Is immortlity the pure preservation of self, or the implication of self in perpetuity? I say either.

Is immortlity the pure preservation of self, or the implication of self in perpetuity? I say either.

I can agree with that, perhaps. What is the pure preservation of self, tho? What does that mean? To prolong in some sort of stasis the current and distinct representation of the ego or self image beyond the parameters of life as we now define it? Physical preservation? Or preservation of the mind?

And implication of the self in perpetuity.....hhhmmmm....very profound, yet confusing somehow.....hhhmmmm....taken literally, it would seem to say that some "shadow" of our "self" somehow survives the physical death of the organism? or that thru some "ego migration" between consecutive physically finite "hosts" one can experience a "virtual" immortality by transmitting one's "essence" from lifespan to lifespan, experiencing a myriad of lives as "different" people with the same core personality? doesn't this suggest that there is something that we are at our core that already is immortal, but is somehow dependent upon a physical organism to exist? That seems to be the argument down the middle between camps, one being awareness as the product of the brain, ending at physical death, the other being the product of assembled conscious energy, which survives physical death and exists in some form and space beyond our organic realm.

Esmer wrote:

Is immortlity the pure preservation of self, or the implication of self in perpetuity? I say either.

I can agree with that, perhaps. What is the pure preservation of self, tho? What does that mean? To prolong in some sort of stasis the current and distinct representation of the ego or self image beyond the parameters of life as we now define it? Physical preservation? Or preservation of the mind?

And implication of the self in perpetuity.....hhhmmmm....very profound, yet confusing somehow.....hhhmmmm....taken literally, it would seem to say that some "shadow" of our "self" somehow survives the physical death of the organism? or that thru some "ego migration" between consecutive physically finite "hosts" one can experience a "virtual" immortality by transmitting one's "essence" from lifespan to lifespan, experiencing a myriad of lives as "different" people with the same core personality? doesn't this suggest that there is something that we are at our core that already is immortal, but is somehow dependent upon a physical organism to exist? That seems to be the argument down the middle between camps, one being awareness as the product of the brain, ending at physical death, the other being the product of assembled conscious energy, which survives physical death and exists in some form and space beyond our organic realm.

Indeed. My take is that self-awareness as a singular entity is not a requirment of "immortality".

But isn't Esmer talking about a preservation of self-awareness?

My definition of immortality requires the continuation of self-awareness, for the very simple reason that if there is no "self" then how can it be you at all? If you don't remain an individual entity, then "you," the enitity known as A Gunslinger, no longer exists.

--A

if there is no "self" then how can it be you at all?

True, but from another point of view - if there is no self, how can it not be 'you'?

I don't mean the'you' that is defined by one's own personal ego boundaries.

What I mean is, if there is no 'self', then there are no ego boundaries. Which is the same as to say, 'you' would come to mean the entire Universe. An expression of identity which has no limitations (therefore is infinite & immortal).

I think the trouble here is, if *you're* talking about absolutes, oyu're (one is) talking about things that exist outside the spectrum of quantifiable reality. Infinity...nothingness...they can't co-exist. And if one were to entertain the notion that they did, they could only co-exist if defined as one and the same thing.

Rather ironically, I doubt we'll ever be immortal unless we're prepared to lose our ego boundaries.

I suspect most of us would rather die!

I came from the collective all and will return to IT. I am still a part of the all. A Gunslinger exists as part of the whole = immortal.

But you have an awareness of self right now. You are a you. If you surrender that, if, as Chuchichastli said, you eradicate the ego-boundary, you will no longer be that self.

The self is aware. Loss of awareness is the same as death. Ceasing to exist in other words.

Welcome to the Close Chuchichastli, always nice to have a new participant.

While I agree that we may not be immortal as long as those boundaries exist, I think that eradicating them is still not the same as immortality.

If your personality, your awareness of yourself as a distinct entity, no longer exists, then there is no "you" to be immortal in the first place.

Yes, we may all form some homogenous mass of "spiritual energy" if you like, but it will be without definition. Nothing that makes you you could survive that.

--A

we have a philosophical quandry here. Where's Revan to sort this all out for us?