Entropy

[Zarathustra]

Fist, why do you think "evenly distributed" represents more order? Order is structure. Even distribution is the absence of structure. It's the same as "random." In a random sequence of numbers, for instance, the numbers are "evenly distributed." There are no little "clumps" of structure which you could describe with a forumla. Or, take my building example. The building has structure which is destroyed in the process of evenly distributing its matter.

The oil and water example is also a good one. A mass separation of molecules according to type is an ordered state. It has a structure: all of one kind over here, and all of another kind over there. It is sorted by type. To evenly distribute oil and water molecules, you shake them up--randomize them.

Even distributions of energy are useless because no energy can be extracted from the system in order to do work. All potential energy has been converted to kinetic energy: heat. Heat is the random motion of molecules, their "jiggling." True, heat can be useful, but only when there is a difference in heat. If everything is the same temperature (an even distribution of heat), then you can't get the heat to do anything.
Potential energy exists only in cases of ordered difference.

About the universe and big bang: the order created during the big bang (creation of atoms, molecules, stars, planets, galaxies, etc.) is an interesting question, one I'll have to research and refresh my memory. For now, I do know that creation of atomic and sub-atomic particles happened due to "symmetry breaking" events as the universe cooled down. I'll have to get back to you on that.

[Avatar]

Good post. And good point about the even distribution not being ordered.

I suppose I was thinking of order as homogeniety...unchanging sameness. But it seems that you see that in the same light as chaos...in other words, useless. (In terms of the universe anyway...energy exchange etc.) Hmm...

--A

[Fist and Faith]

Fist, why do you think "evenly distributed" represents more order? Order is structure.

Order can be structure, but structure is not necessary. Soldiers can be lined up exactly three feet from the soldiers on either side, in front, and behind. Surely, these perfect rows and columns are ordered? But there is no structure.

Even distribution is the absence of structure. It's the same as "random." In a random sequence of numbers, for instance, the numbers are "evenly distributed." There are no little "clumps" of structure which you could describe with a forumla.

No, random is something different. It's true that no formula can describe a random distribution. That's what makes it random, after all. But if random was even, the formula would be quite easy to figure out. Every three feet; every 10th particle; etc. If it's random, there will be little clumps, but they are not going to be the same size each time; they will not come along at regular intervals; etc.

[Trapper]

So as a whole, the universe is in a state of constant decay, constantly increasing entropy, even when order increases in little pockets like stars and planets. This is why scientists (and science fiction writers) worry about the Heat Death at the end of the universe where all energy is in a randomized, useless state. And it's why Donaldson is so concerned with it: life is tragic, all things diminish and end.

Who knows? Maybe some day in the vastly distant future, E will only have a 50-50 chance of equalling MC squared!

IIRC it was Paul Davies who put forth the idea that the universe/multiverse may be constituted of regions in which basic physics may differ.

ie

1:If you imagine all that humanity can see (or will ever be able to see) as one small crystal.

2:And if you imagine that that crystal as the tiniest part of a whole scoop of ice-cream (in which the constants of physics are the same as ours, E=mc squared and the like).

3:And if you imagine that this is just one scoop in a whole sundae of different flavoured uni/multiverses whose physical laws may differ from our own.

4:While portraying it as an impossibilty, Davies conjectured that the most incredible thing that could happen to a physicist was to stand at one of those flavour-borders, beholding a reality in which the very laws of nature were changed.

My thoughts:

5:Perhaps these "places" could feed off the Entropy of our place?

6:And I don't even like ice-cream. I think it's horrible stuff.

[Zarathustra]

Fist, your army example does indeed have structure. I think "structure" and "order" are interchangeable, aren't they? It resembles a lattice or atoms in a crystal. Their arrangement most certainly can be described in a mathematical algorithm. Just the fact that we could easily write a program to display dots in such an arragement makes this obvious.

However, I do see a problem with such a state containing potential energy. If all matter in the universe were arranged like this--evenly distributed--could work be done? I know that crystals have certain properties like resonance frequencies and piezoelectricity, but that requires the input of external eletric fields. So perhaps in this one case, order does not lend itself to the extraction of useful energy. Can someone else help me out? What am I missign here? Is it simply a case of assuming too much from entropy? In other words, just because useful energy decreases as order decreases, perhaps this doesn't necessarily imply the opposite, i.e. that every increase in order provides increases in useful energy? If so, increase in order is a necessary but not sufficient condition for increases in useful energy? I don't know. It's been too long since my college physics classes.

[Fist and Faith]

Fist, your army example does indeed have structure. I think "structure" and "order" are interchangeable, aren't they? It resembles a lattice or atoms in a crystal. Their arrangement most certainly can be described in a mathematical algorithm. Just the fact that we could easily write a program to display dots in such an arragement makes this obvious.

I know what you mean, and, in a way, agree. But isn't there a difference in the type of structure found in this hypothetical universal lattice and the many different "'clumps' of structure" in the universe that are always attempting to break down into the universal lattice? The "clumps" are anything that is not part of the lattice. And all clumps are attempting to lose their structure, and become part of the perfect order of the universal lattice. Although I understand what you mean by saying the ul has structure, I'm trying to differentiate between the order of absolute entropy and structure. But that's just the way I see it.

However, I do see a problem with such a state containing potential energy. If all matter in the universe were arranged like this--evenly distributed--could work be done? I know that crystals have certain properties like resonance frequencies and piezoelectricity, but that requires the input of external eletric fields. So perhaps in this one case, order does not lend itself to the extraction of useful energy. Can someone else help me out? What am I missign here? Is it simply a case of assuming too much from entropy? In other words, just because useful energy decreases as order decreases, perhaps this doesn't necessarily imply the opposite, i.e. that every increase in order provides increases in useful energy? If so, increase in order is a necessary but not sufficient condition for increases in useful energy? I don't know. It's been too long since my college physics classes.

I can only see this as supporting what I'm trying to do. There is a difference between the order of absolute entropy and any other kind of order. I think "this one case" should be viewed in a different way from all others.

[Zarathustra]

Fist, the universe isn't tending towards an absolutely uniform, lattice structure. Absolute entropy will be a lot more like molecules in a cloud of gas than a crystal. The dead stars and galaxies will be forever dispersing in random fashion.

[Fist and Faith]

I understand that it will never happen, but I'm arguing that the force of entropy would, if allowed, spread everything out so that all members of any group would be equidistant from all other members of the same group. Yes, there are forces that act against it, but is that not the idea behind entropy? Things try to go from areas of high concentration to areas of low concentration. Isn't that the Heat Death you've mentioned a couple times? As I asked a page or two ago, at what point does entropy say, "OK, that's close enough. There's groups here and there, but they can remain in groups forever."?

If that is what entropy is all about, then it is attempting the lattice. Which I say has order, and you say has order and structure. Just because it won't ever get to that point, just because it would more likely end like molecules in a cloud of gas, doesn't mean it's not trying. That's why I'm saying entropy does not work toward highest disorder.

Truly, I'm not arguing just to argue. I don't understand which part of what I've just said is incorrect.

[Tulizar]

Great posts.

Trying to get a better grasp on the order and decay of the universe, I've been doing some entropy digging online and found some pretty interesting sites.

This one seems to be in line with Fist's assertions that the overall order of the universe is decaying to another absolute state of order.

everythingforever.com/

The original state of the big bang is often called Alpha, and in science we now know the universe is expanding directly toward the extreme state of absolute zero, which I call Omega. In timelessness, Alpha and Omega are ultimate boundaries beyond which no other possibilities exist. So they allow us to frame and see the structure of timelessness. All other patterns and possibilities exist trapped between Alpha and Omega, and the whole body can be visualized in a very simple way.

Today we model the set of all possible patterns with what is called the second law of thermodynamics. Presently we view possibilities with a model where there is generally an ever fewer measure of ordered states in the past, and an ever increasing measure of disordered states toward the future. It is believed that the universe is becoming increasingly disordered with time. This has long been the most disappointing lesson of science because it suggests the universe of time has no purpose or meaning.

However, in 1998 we discovered the expansion of the universe is presently accelerating, and we are now slowly coming to terms with the fact that the universe is moving directly toward absolute zero. Here I explain that the absolute zero in our future is not disorder, it is a radical state of balance common to everything that exists, even the greater infinity of worlds. Zero is the great attractor for all time and change.

There is a trend, an organized flow to the evolving universe, but the second law is not correct in claiming an ordered universe is moving toward disorder. It is true that entropy, which is the amount of unusable energy in the universe, is ever increasing. But generally the universe is evolving away from one type of order toward a completely different type of order.

What we haven't realized in science yet is that there are two kinds of order in nature, one kind of order exists in our past, while another exists in our future, and what we see in science as a trend toward disorder is more correctly understood to be a trend toward the balance and wholeness of a cosmic equilibrium state.

Discovering that there are two kinds of order is perhaps the grandest step we can make toward understanding how nature works, revealing the governing dynamics of both the physical and the human universes. It even explains how our finite universe fits together with the big picture. Hold on to your hat, because discovering timelessness opens a door to understanding the universe like no other.

Although the articles seem more philosophic than scientific, the author asserts that in every level of existence, entropy is a given--order decays into an unusable state (as Malik and others have explained), while simultaneously breaking down into an ordered state.

In a constant state of entropy, the universe is moving from Order to Order.

[Avatar]

I like it. Makes sense to me. Thanks for the article Tulizar.

--A