Why does Linden need the Staff?

[Nerdanel]

I think the change in SRD's style can be chalked on him improving his craft, as he's been talking about.

I've been saying all along that Linden is on her way to a disaster, that things are far worse than they appear, and that Linden really should have stopped to think before she acted. Also, I think Lord Foul has deliberately been trying to keep Linden from having the time to think. But I still think Linden knows what she does. She just hasn't considered very carefully if it might be a good idea after all. A lot of people do this all the time, for example [an excellent opportunity for a political rant declined]. Are you saying that these [lalalalala, resisting the temptation, lalalala] don't know what they believe in?

[Zarathustra]

Just because other people mess up when they know their intentions doesn't mean that Linden has fully analyzed her own intentions. As you said, FL has been deliberately been trying to keep Linden from having the time to think.

Oh well, this is as good a place as any to agree to disagree.

[Relayer]

"Consolation prize?" It would really be sad if saving the Land were reduced to this. Saving the Land shouldn't be a side-project, a consolation prize, or something you do to pass the time while waiting for your REAL goal. ... ... <snip> ... ... (And maybe that's a huge source of the disappoint people have with Runes. On some level, they recognize that saving the Land is a "consolation prize" this time out.)

It may be a consolation prize for Linden, but I doubt it is for anyone else. Sure, I'd assume anyone else would love to help her save Jeremiah, but likely not at the expense of the Land. The Masters certainly wouldn't think that way. Plus, these still aren't the Chronicles of Linden Avery... TC will have some say in the matter.

He did it on purpose. ... ... ... He's using our expectations and the conditioning from previous books against us--just as he's doing with Linden.

I believe he left it out because her poorly thought-out reasons for going after the Staff are precisely what makes the destruction of the Land possible. Her two desires are in conflict; her desire to save her son will undermine her natural tendency to want to save the Land. Her actions are putting the Land in jeopardy. It is precisely because she's not thinking her reasons through that makes this situation possible. ... ... ... But it's not witheld to increase the mystery, as SRD does with LF's machinations. This time the misdirection is much more subtle.

Agreed! I've argued some of the same points before... she's not thinking about the consequences of her actions, she's not thinking things through before rushing off to find the Staff, creating caesures, etc. And isn't this exactly what the Ranyhyn think? That her actions may well destroy the Land, but they are willing to trust her anyway. We also see this in all the times she thinks "Surely... bla bla bla." She seems to have all these preconceptions... surely the Creator had abandoned the Land because he didn't appear to her... surely she could raise the white fire... surely the Haruchai would understand... SRD uses the word more often than "puissant" It looks like he's setting her up to crash on her expectations, her closed-mindedness.

It also makes me think of the Zen concept that mastery comes from having a "blank slate." Whenever we say "I know..." we limit ourselves from learning anything else.

And you're saying that SRD would intentionally misdirect us, his faithful readers??!!?!!?!?!
Surely you jest.

It does make sense though. TC goes to Andelain, where he is given two things: Vain, and the location of the One Tree. And Mhoram's message: "the thing you seek is not what it seems."

Well that's was so revealing about the GI.
I always thought that the "thing" was Findail.
But I think SRD says it was really Vain getting whacked by the Tree.

I think it was more like "You need a new Staff, but you can't get it from the One Tree because you'll wake up the Worm. However, this strange guy we just assigned to you is programmed to take in the essence of the Tree when you get there. Just be careful not to make too much noise when you're at the Isle."

A couple questions:

What if Brinn couldn't defeat the Guardian? Which the ur-viles and the Dead could not be certain of. Was Vain programmed to do it?

Why doesn't Vain just merge w/ Findail right then? I understand why Findail wouldn't want to, but it appears Vain has no qualms about it. Why not just do it? The Staff would've been useful to the Quest and to the Land, oh only about every other page between the Isle and Kiril Threndor. The only reason I can think of is that Linden doesn't have the ring, but if Vain said to TC: "Look bro, let her borrow the ring for a few minutes so she can make a new Staff w/ me and my buddy Finny. This is what Mhoram meant in his oblique way. Linden, you have to promise to give it back to him when you're done, but you can use the Staff. Covenant, you have to promise not to send her back. Now make nicey-nice."

[wayfriend]

Why doesn't Vain just merge w/ Findail right then? I understand why Findail wouldn't want to, but it appears Vain has no qualms about it. Why not just do it? The Staff would've been useful to the Quest and to the Land, oh only about every other page between the Isle and Kiril Threndor. The only reason I can think of is that Linden doesn't have the ring, but if Vain said to TC: "Look bro, let her borrow the ring for a few minutes so she can make a new Staff w/ me and my buddy Finny. This is what Mhoram meant in his oblique way. Linden, you have to promise to give it back to him when you're done, but you can use the Staff. Covenant, you have to promise not to send her back. Now make nicey-nice."

I think that's the spot-on answer. The new staff requires more than Findail and Vain and some essence of the One Tree. It also requires white magic and percipience and some other thinks that Linden must provide. There's a thread about the 'recipe' somewhere in this forum. Anyway: it seems to me that it was Vain himself who held out until Linden had the ring (more or less). Which means that the ur-viles who created him and the Dead who inspired him wanted Vain to wait until that moment.

[Avatar]

I'm too lazy to read this whole thread, but yes, it bothers me. I don't trust Linden at all here.

As Mailk points out, (and I've mentioned elsewhere), all she cares about is Jeremiah. I can't help wondering what that is going to cost the Land.

--A

[Zarathustra]

Av, no need to read the entire thread. You get it. There's something disturbing about her lack of clarity on this issue, and the way those who trust her go along with it as if "business as usual" for a Covenant book.

I think we're going to look back on tis book--after the others are written--and realize how good it actually was, how subtlely it set everything up . . . the tragic turns the series will take. The seeds are being sown. Yes, we always "knew" this, but I think her unclear, conflicting intentions are precisely the means by which it happens.

[Avatar]

I wouldn't be surprised at all. I've been dubious ever since she first said that nothing mattered but rescuing her son.

Now, to be sure, Mhoram said that such motivations couldn't harm the Land. But I think he was wrong.

Her motives are entirely too selfish.

OK, so were TC's but that changed...whether hers will remains to be seen.

--A

[wayfriend]

Well, this topic is about Linden not having any reason to search for the Staff, right?

Well fair is fair ...

From Linden's POV, what reasons does she have for doing anything for the Land? Or against Foul? Or anything other than find her son?

( You might say, she cares for the Land, and so that would lead her to want to protect it. But some have carpet-bombed earlier in this thread any such comments about her feeling protective of a Staff she herself worked and sacrificed and bled for and lost her true love in order to create it. So fair is fair - we cannot make that assumption. )

[Zarathustra]

Well, this topic is about Linden not having any reason to search for the Staff, right?

Well fair is fair ...

From Linden's POV, what reasons does she have for doing anything for the Land? Or against Foul? Or anything other than find her son?

( You might say, she cares for the Land, and so that would lead her to want to protect it. But some have carpet-bombed earlier in this thread any such comments about her feeling protective of a Staff she herself worked and sacrificed and bled for and lost her true love in order to create it. So fair is fair - we cannot make that assumption. )

Internet carpet-bombing is my day job.

I really like your theory about Linden being tied to the Staff thematically. Honestly, no sarcasm intended. I just don't think that in terms of character development she has much invested in it. Up until the very last pages of the 2nd Chrons, her interest in the Staff was only vicarious--through Covenant. The Staff was Covenant's quest, not hers. And then she puts it together and heals the Land. All in about, what?, 30 minutes? I means, she was in danger of dissolving away back to the real world the whole time, so she couldn't have spent much time with it.

Her role with the Staff was important--no, vital to the story--but not to her personally. It was just important to Donaldson's goals as a storyteller. I'm sure it was a life changing moment for Linden, but nothing compared to raising Jeremiah for 10 years. It's not like the Staff is her son.

[alkemyst]

I have only skimmed the new book and read the first chapter free. I have read the other six about 3 times over. This is my first post.

Linden fell in love with TC for a reason. He was probably her worst nightmare at the time (all the baggage he forced upon her).

She could have walked away from it all, but chose not too. I used to hate her character.

I see her becoming a bastion of power by the last book, possibly even successfully resurrecting TC from the dead ala Kevin Landwaster's problematic resurrection. To me TC didn't actually die...perhaps he was severely weakened just like Lord Foul was in the beginning of the series.

He could be just healing and waiting for the possession of his ring, staff, and Loric's Krill.

In just my skimming I am glad SRD is a bit less verbose.

[wayfriend]

Several places where Linden explains why she wants to find the Staff:

She was already sure that she would not be able to search for Jeremiah without Earthpower and the Staff of Law.

"And as if all of that weren't enough, the Staff of Law has been lost. It's the only weapon I know of against Kevin's Dirt and the Falls,

Her beloved had told her in dreams, You need the Staff of Law. That she understood.

She was sick to death of helplessness.

"If I'm going to fight Lord Foul, I need the Staff. I'm no 'Wildwielder.' That was Covenant, and he's dead. And white gold can't stop caesures. You know that better than I do. Only Law can undo that kind of rupture.

"But that's not all." She glanced back at Cail's son, then told the Waynhim urgently, "Esmer may not have mentioned that Lord Foul has my son, my Jeremiah. Maybe I can rescue him with wild magic, maybe I can't. But I can't do it without risking the Arch, and that's too dangerous. I need the Staff. Otherwise I might do enough harm to end the Earth."

Even Jeremiah would be destroyed.

"And the Staff belongs to me," she asserted. "Not just because I made it, but because I'm a healer. That's what I do." She chose her words with care. "I'm the right person to use it."

You're the only one who can do this.

- - - - - - -

but we never see her wondering how it will help

I have shown where we have.

3) "because she thinks that having the power of the Staff of Law at her command will make everything easier for her, including successfully rescuing Jeremiah." Where does she say this?

I have shown where.

Linden goes after the Staff because Donaldson wants her to, not because she wants to. It's just a plot device without any explicitly written character motivation.

I have shown where her motivation is written.

Linden figures that more power = better for survival

Where does it say ANY of this in the text?

I have shown where.

but Linden herself doesn't come up with reasons for her actions

I have shown where she does.

So she assumed that recovering the Staff and wielding it might provide the basis for dispelling Kevin's Dirt, which in turn would help her by leading all the people of the Land to see its loveliness again, which in turn would have them perhaps rebel to the Masters, but also give them a compelling reason to help her to save Jeremiah.

Good theory. I wish Linden would have thought of it. She doesn't. It's not in the text.

I have shown where she does, at least the part about the Staff fighting Kevin's Dirt.

- - - - - - -

Also:

Unconscious, she had heard Covenant tell her, You need the Staff of Law. But if the Staff were lost - Lord Foul may have sent Covenant's voice to taunt her, as he had caused her to be tormented during her translation to the Land.

It's too easy. Do you wake up and do what people tell you in your dreams? How the hell does she know this is the actual Covenant, and not simply a dream of him? Why isn't this doubt at least presented (and then overcome) in the text?

I have shown where the doubt is presented.

[Dirty Whirl]

Nothing like accurate quoting to win arguements!

[Zarathustra]

Good job, Wayfriend. I asked for a quote, and you give me 4. Page numbers would have been nice to check the context, but I suppose I can't complain, since you're the only one to provide any quotes directly relating to the issue at hand.

She was already sure that she would not be able to search for Jeremiah without Earthpower and the Staff of Law.

Taken out of context, it's difficult to see why she thinks this is true. What does the Staff have to do with finding Jeremiah? We already know she thinks it's vital. After all, she's taking very great risks to get it. And we already know she wants to rescue her son. These two points were never in question here. My question was: why does she think it's vital for finding Jeremiah? So this quote doesn't help.

"And as if all of that weren't enough, the Staff of Law has been lost. It's the only weapon I know of against Kevin's Dirt and the Falls

I didn't realize she cared about fighting Kevin's Dirt and the falls. Obviously, it won't help her find Jeremiah. So saving the Land really is her "side project" while she's groping for a way to rescue her son? Something about that bugs me.

However, I have to admit that this is a statement of her motivation. It does state why she thinks the Staff is necessary. It's just that this explanation doesn't square with her goal. And it contradicts this: "She had lost her son, and would dare any devastation to win him back. In her scales, he outweighed the life of worlds." If he outweighs the fate of the Land, then why bother with KD and falls at all?

If she has two goals--saving the Land and rescuing her son--then we lose the tension of her single-mindedness for Jeremiah causing her to risk the Land (by going back in time, etc.). Is she risking the Land because the Land is so precious that saving it is worth its potential destruction? Or is she risking the Land because her son is more important than the Land? These are mutually exclusive. Donaldson can't have it both ways. If her son is so important that he's worth risking the Land, then the Land can't be so important that she'd risk destroying the Arch (and thus killing her son) in order to save it.

Her beloved had told her in dreams, You need the Staff of Law. That she understood.

She was sick to death of helplessness.

Ok, she thinks the Staff will help her. Again, this much is already plain and was never in question here. Just because she doesn't like being helpless doesn't mean that she knows how the Staff will help her find Jeremiah.

"If I'm going to fight Lord Foul, I need the Staff. I'm no 'Wildwielder.' That was Covenant, and he's dead.

Yet she is better at using the white gold than Covenant . . . and the ring is hers now. Doesn't make sense.

And white gold can't stop caesures. You know that better than I do. Only Law can undo that kind of rupture.

Again, this doesn't explain how it will help with Jeremiah. See above.

"But that's not all." She glanced back at Cail's son, then told the Waynhim urgently, "Esmer may not have mentioned that Lord Foul has my son, my Jeremiah. Maybe I can rescue him with wild magic, maybe I can't. But I can't do it without risking the Arch, and that's too dangerous. I need the Staff. Otherwise I might do enough harm to end the Earth."
Even Jeremiah would be destroyed.

This one is pretty good. Probably the best quote you've given. At least it shows that she is trying to think it through, and has come up with a specific reason why the Staff is necessary to regain Jeremiah. However, it doesn't make much sense. Covenant defeated Foul in the 1st Chronicles without the Staff, and without breaking the arch. The danger to the arch in the 2nd Chronicles comes from the venom and lack of persipience--both of which don't apply here, not unless Foul is hiding Jeremiah somewhere within Kevin's Dirt. But even that can be dealt with via hurtloam. I think it would be an infinitely smaller matter to overcome the difficulties associated with hurtloam (finding, transporting, etc.) than traveling back in time to get the Staff.

"And the Staff belongs to me," she asserted. "Not just because I made it, but because I'm a healer. That's what I do." She chose her words with care. "I'm the right person to use it."

Being a healer and having a personal relationship with the Staff have nothing to do with regaining Jeremiah. I can't believe that she would waste one second on anything unrelated to finding her son, especially for some nebulus connection with an inanimate object. For Donaldson to suggest this seems like an ad hoc justification for an issue he already recognizes as weak, in need of additional propping up. I do like this idea. I just wish the Jeremiah issue wasn't clouding it. Really, if he wasn't part of the story, all these contradictions would go away. She could just do "what she's meant to do," and save the Land.

In the end, you've shown what I asked for: why she thinks she needs the Staff. However, this only raises more problems and contradictions--which reveals that this issue is not clear. The fact that Donaldson comes up with so many different explanations, each with their own problems, shows that the core of this issue is muddled and uncertain. Why doesn't one suffice? Because none of them really make much sense.

[wayfriend]

Malik, why are you keep stating that it's all about finding Jeremiah?Once she finds Jeremiah, she needs to free him from Foul, which won't be a process of asking nicely. And then there's even getting to him, which is a sore enough trial. Surely Linden would want the Staff's help for these things as well as for the actual locating part.

[Zarathustra]

Malik, why are you keep stating that it's all about finding Jeremiah?Once she finds Jeremiah, she needs to free him from Foul, which won't be a process of asking nicely. And then there's even getting to him, which is a sore enough trial. Surely Linden would want the Staff's help for these things as well as for the actual locating part.

I agree, which is why I said that the quote about using the Staff instead of the ring to confront Foul is the best quote you've given. It actually shows some thought specific to both her problem and the Staff. [Maybe I haven't got that far in my 2nd reading, yet. I forgot about that one.]

And while I want to accept this (really, I do--I'm not just being argumentative), it still doesn't make sense. She should be able to use the ring to fight Foul without endangering the Arch. She has no venom. She can wield the wild magic like a scalpel. Why isn't power and control enough?

Perhaps the problem doesn't lie within Runes, but in how much control SRD gave her over the wild magic in the 2nd Chrons. I believe you've noted dissatisfaction over this discrepancy yourself. Thematically, Runes would be fine if not for this discrepancy, because wild magic IS the antithesis of control; thus it would make sense for her to seek out the Staff to make up for this shortcoming. But then, he shouldn't have made her so good at using the ring judiciously. That negates the whole point of Law (i.e., control, restraint, discipline). Maybe things will become clearer as the LC continues.

I appreciate your input. You've really made me work with that previous post!

[Nerdanel]

I think Linden needs the Staff of Law due to the Kevin's Dirt and the caesures.

Linden's health-sense is blinded by Kevin's Dirt and white gold can do nothing about that. Without health-sense she is vulnerable to stuff like, say, Liand being covertly possessed by a Raver or a seemingly harmless person of the Land wishing her ill, etc., and (granted sufficient acting ability) she would never know until they decided to stab her in the back. Without health-sense she would not be able to extend her perceptions to pinpoint the location of Jeremiah from afar. Without health-sense she would not even be able to use wild magic to heal her companions. She might be able to wield wild magic like a scalpel, but it would be like wielding a scalpel while blind, doing more harm than good. The trouble piles up.

In the time period we are talking about Linden still didn't know that much about the caesures, but she would have noticed that they are a problem (although Esmer told her about their uses too). Her "confrontation" with a caesure on Kevin's Watch wasn't exactly a success. She wasn't even able to protect Anele. (I think Anele's survival had nothing to do with Linden but was rather the result of Anele's own unrealized immortality. Anele does thank Linden, but we have Linden's POV throughout the entire scene, and Linden did not heal or protect him.) And Linden wouldn't even be able to sense a caesure until it was practically next to her...

[Earthpower]

Hello first time poster.

First I would like to say I couldn't fathom Linden not trying to save the land from the character I have come to know. She is a healer and how many times has she risked her life to heal others let alone the land. The Staff of Law is a instrument used for healing among other things and I find it natural that she would want to find and or claim the staff for herself without this being her main focus.

The main reason I feel she would want the staff is for a trigger of the white gold. I don't feel she trust herself to be able to call forth the wild magic on her own. The reason for the wild magic is she feels it will be needed to defeat Lord Foul to get her son back. Maybe I'm out in left field on this what do you think?

[Loredoctor]

Welcome to the watch, Earthpower.

[dlbpharmd]

Welcome!

[Xar]

To add to the whole idea of Linden's close-mindedness, didn't SRD mention in a recent answer to the GI that Linden in RotE is still much more clenched and less open than TC was in "The Wounded Land"?

If a character's journeys to the Land are in a way a "spiritual path of healing" for their psychological wounds, we can easily see this for Covenant as he progresses through the First and Second Chronicles, but Linden is much more subtle. For example, even after all she's been through with Covenant, it takes only Kevin Landwaster's ghost speaking a few words to her for her to immediately mistrust Covenant all over again. And this despite the fact she knew who Kevin was, what he had done. I think Linden at the end of WGW was much less "healed" than Covenant was at the end of TPTP; as we see in RotE, she still has somewhat of a need for power, the same need that drove her through the Second Chronicles and eventually led her to possess Covenant in Kiril Threndor. Perhaps she may have other reasons to get the Staff of Law, but it is also likely that she still craves power - so as soon as she finds out that one such source can't help her, she immediately wants another one. Notice how she agonizes on why she can't use wild magic and the Staff at the same time - a theme that resurfaces at least twice that I can recall, and possibly more.
I think Linden's attitude stems in part from the fact that she never knew the Land in its prime, as Covenant did; sure, she saw Andelain, but she mostly saw the Land under the Sunbane, so whatever love she learned to feel for the Land is more diluted than the love Covenant felt for it. After all, she never truly saw the Land completely healthy and unassailed, and she never had a chance to meet the ancient Stonedownors, Woodhelvennin, or Lords. Sure, she met Sunder, Hollian, and a handful of other people, such as the Giants, which seemed to validate Covenant's love for the Land despite its current state; but that still hardly compares to walking across the Land, seeing the Celebration of Spring, wandering across Revelwood, climbing Melenkurion Skyweir, having scores of the Ranyhyn rearing at her, seeing the courage of the Lords in the face of adversity, having a man as wise as Mhoram as your friend.
And, perhaps most of all, Linden's actions never imperiled the Land like Covenant's rape of Lena did. Covenant cared about the Land not only because he had seen what the Land was supposed to be like, but also because he knew he was responsible for its degradation throughout the First Chronicles (and seeing Lena in TPTP drove home his guilt, showing him the full implications of what he had done, perhaps even more than Elena's madness), and he felt responsible for the Sunbane in the Second Chronicles (because he felt that since he hadn't slain Foul, he had unwittingly allowed the Sunbane to manifest).
Linden never had this feeling: her actions may have been sometimes rash in the Second Chronicles, but with the exception perhaps of her possession of Covenant in WGW, she never truly did anything whose consequences caused the Land to step closer to destruction. She lacks the emotional connection to the Land that Covenant had, and she still believes that good can be accomplished with evil means.
I wonder whether this is why the Creator didn't show himself to Linden this time... perhaps it's not that he already knows the Land is doomed, but what if instead he simply didn't believe in Linden anymore?