I can sort of follow Donaldson's description. Something like: a seer can see somthing coming, but an oracle can tell where something's going.
But when Kevin Landwaster decided in his heart to invoke the Ritual of Desecration, he saved the Bloodguard and the Ranyhyn and the Giants because he was an oracle. And because he was no prophet he failed to see that Lord Foul would survive.
Applying this to the text, it would seem that Kevin was able to see what the Bloodguard and Ranyhyn were destined for, and so he saved them to meet that destiny. Or perhaps he saved them because he saw that their destiny was not to die in the Ritual.
By the same logic, why did he not see Foul's destiny? Was perhaps his path "hidden" by the ritual? Foul always talks about paths being hidden; this would mean that he was an oracle as well.
Wayfriend wrote:I can sort of follow Donaldson's description. Something like: a seer can see somthing coming, but an oracle can tell where something's going.
That's pretty much how I read it too.
Seer: "There's something big and nasty heading this way"
Oracle: "You are destined for great things, my son"
I still think he's a seer, but the evidence for that is strictly Runes material, so I'm not even sure if I can say I think he's a seer. Spoiler
When Linden is on her way to the Land, she sees a vision of what appears to be the future. I think the clear implication was that Linden is at the time unnoticed inside Lord Foul's mind and shared a vision Lord Foul was having. She then hears him comment on the vision (that he is content) and hears some instructions to who appears to be Herem before she expels herself from Foul's mind. The whole thing is similar to how Linden earlier in the same chapter found herself inside Joan's mind and shared the visions Herem was feeding to Joan.)
In the normal course of things we never see anything from Lord Foul's POV. so he can have visions without us being any the wiser.
Oh, and I forgot to correct that Kevin was a seer, not the other thing.
I wouldn't ascribe the characteristics of either a seer or a prophet to LF. I don't think he fits either description, as they are applied to humans. Basically I understand LF to be some kind of deity, albeit one operating under some constraints while he's stuck inside the world of the Land. As such he obviously has a variety of powers and abilities that mortals do not. Some passages suggest he has some kind of foresight, but I think of him in terms similar to Sauron in LOTR. Gandalf had a good quote about how Sauron is wise, and weighs everything on the scales of his wisdom to a nicety. I think its the same with LF. He is extremely intelligent, has a very well developed understanding of the behaviour of most individuals (an understanding only confounded by truly exceptional individuals such as TC, Mhorram, and to an extent LA), and is able to gather through spies and presumably magical means a huge amount of information about the pawns on his chess board. These attributes allow him to project what will happen very accurately - he knows that 99 times out of 100, if you have "A", add "B" and wait til "C" happens, you'll end up with "D". This would appear to be a kind of foresight to observers, but is nothing of the sort. And this is shown by his inability to foresee what will happen when he's required to allow actors free will.
LF can remove the element of doubt created by obdurate individuals like TC and Mhorram by forcing them to act as he wishes, but doing so deprives them of their free will. SRD is very clear on this in the text that doing so would make them LF's tools, which means that they can't do anything he himself can't do - so LF has to allow them their free will and engineer a situation where of their own free will they'll play into his hands. He can develop a plan that according to his wisdom should result in them doing so, but he can't see what the result of that plan WILL be, as opposed to SHOULD be.
I think the same restrictions apply to the Creator, but presumably because of his understanding of compassion and beauty, the Creator is better at predicting the likely actions of his agents. In fact, early in the 2nd Chronicles, I think TC specifically says that he doesn't think the Creator KNOWS what will happen, he has to do his best to help and then hope.
On the "why was Foul trying to win the war seven years before it was time in TIW" question. If I recall correctly, and my copy of LFB is on loan, he said that the "utmost span of their years" shall be 47. He predicted that the longest they could resist him was 47 years, but he didn't say that they definitely would last that long.
Mhorram's Revenge wrote:I wouldn't ascribe the characteristics of either a seer or a prophet to LF. I don't think he fits either description, as they are applied to humans. Basically I understand LF to be some kind of deity, albeit one operating under some constraints while he's stuck inside the world of the Land. As such he obviously has a variety of powers and abilities that mortals do not. Some passages suggest he has some kind of foresight, but I think of him in terms similar to Sauron in LOTR. Gandalf had a good quote about how Sauron is wise, and weighs everything on the scales of his wisdom to a nicety. I think its the same with LF. He is extremely intelligent, has a very well developed understanding of the behaviour of most individuals (an understanding only confounded by truly exceptional individuals such as TC, Mhorram, and to an extent LA), and is able to gather through spies and presumably magical means a huge amount of information about the pawns on his chess board. These attributes allow him to project what will happen very accurately - he knows that 99 times out of 100, if you have "A", add "B" and wait til "C" happens, you'll end up with "D". This would appear to be a kind of foresight to observers, but is nothing of the sort. And this is shown by his inability to foresee what will happen when he's required to allow actors free will.
LF can remove the element of doubt created by obdurate individuals like TC and Mhorram by forcing them to act as he wishes, but doing so deprives them of their free will. SRD is very clear on this in the text that doing so would make them LF's tools, which means that they can't do anything he himself can't do - so LF has to allow them their free will and engineer a situation where of their own free will they'll play into his hands. He can develop a plan that according to his wisdom should result in them doing so, but he can't see what the result of that plan WILL be, as opposed to SHOULD be.
I think the same restrictions apply to the Creator, but presumably because of his understanding of compassion and beauty, the Creator is better at predicting the likely actions of his agents. In fact, early in the 2nd Chronicles, I think TC specifically says that he doesn't think the Creator KNOWS what will happen, he has to do his best to help and then hope.
welcome Mhorrams revenge. that was a great post. very insightful. well said.
I agree that applying mortal rules, such as the seer/oracle one, to Lord Foul is an error. He is so far removed from everyone but the Creator in both the nature and extent of his power, that it is folly to assume he is bound by the same rules as Lords or any other creatures of the Land-Earth.
I agree that Lord Foul is smart and experienced enough to be able to predict people's behavior without any supernatural aid. However I do not agree that the laws that apply to humans do not apply to him. He's a different sort of entity, sure, but the system of laws (which I think is really another name for the Arch of Time) binds and limits him.
I think there's proof for Lord Foul having foresight. I think no intelligence for example would have been enough to predict Covenant would give the white gold to Lord Foul's hand. The number of variables is simply far too great. Covenant might have died any number of ways in the course of the trilogy, or given the ring to Linden, or something. And I do think Lord Foul was surprised a number of times already in The Wounded Land. (Hint: Look at when two-day suns occur. I think Lord Foul controlled the Sunbane cycle. I'm probably going to write a topic about this eventually.) Since a) the predicted event was a result of a highly complex chain of events featuring the interactions of many people over the span of months, and b) I think it's established that he never lies, Lord Foul had to use some form of foreknowledge more than simple experience and logic. I think he knew that Covenant would give him the ring but not what events would lead into it nor what would happen when he got it.
(The example in Runes that I've been talking about under spoiler tags is another thing entirely.)
I would argue that Foul didn't lose the Illearth War at all. His only goal is the White Gold ring. Everything else is incidental to that cause. I look at the War as one "battle" in the overall struggle, and even in those terms Foul didn't really lose. The Lords weren't defeated, but they may as well have been. Their "victory" cost them almost everything they had. So the Raver got his body killed, he was back in the next book anyway. So he lost his huge army, he managed to raise another one that came within inches of crushing Revelstone.
I wouldn't say Foul can see the future with 100% accuracy, but like others have said, he can predict human behavior almost perfectly. Near as I can tell there have only been two instances in the entire series where things didn't go perfectly for Foul. When Mhoram smashed the Raver at Revelstone and stopped the siege and when Covenant depleted him at the end of White Gold Wielder. Foul's greatest power has always been the ability to turn almost any event to his advantage. That's the root of his power of despair: the knowledge that no matter what anyone does it ultimately serves Foul. Even Mhoram's victory could be read as playing into Foul's hands, but I don't think he could have predicted the siege ending like that, it relied on Mhoram doing something almost entirely out of character.
The Illearth War was a huge victory for Foul, as far as I can tell. The Lord's army was almost totally destroyed, both physically and mentally. There was almost no recovering from that kind of attrition, and the knowledge that Foul can field an army that big. No matter how things turned out Foul would've won: either the Warward was utterly destroyed, leaving the Land defenseless, or they somehow win but at such a high cost that it really amounts to nothing, which is exactly what happened. Either way the Warward was removed as a credible threat to Foul.
bollockhead wrote:Did't LF phophesise to Covenant in LFB that his total dominion of the Land would be in 47 years? (sorry i can't remember the quote) As the Illearth War was 40 years later maybe LF knew this wasn't the time for complete victory. I felt the whole purpose of the war was to drive the Lords to do do something reckless and either break or lose the Staff of Law in the process, thus removing a thorn in his side as well as a possible weapon should TC turn against him.
If you look at some of what LF got out of the Illearth War: 1 Control of the Staff 2 Destruction of any attacking capability of the Warward - then the loss of the stone warped creatures that made up his army would have been an acceptable use of his resources.
If I may, you forgot the third, and IMHO, the most important thing Foul gained from his 'carelessness': The Law of Death was broken, which gave him limitless forces to draw upon, that were nigh on indestructible, and didn't have to muck about with the inconvenience of either eating or sleeping
WolfMann63 wrote:If I may, you forgot the third, and IMHO, the most important thing Foul gained from his 'carelessness': The Law of Death was broken, which gave him limitless forces to draw upon, that were nigh on indestructible, and didn't have to muck about with the inconvenience of either eating or sleeping
Welcome to the Watch, Wolfman.
How did the Illearth War gain Lord Foul the breaking of the Law of Death?
Am I misremembering (which is totally possible, I haven't read the books in a while) but didn't Elena break the Law of Death by ordering Kevin to destroy Foul? Hile Troy broke the Law of Life by bringing back Hollian, didn't he?
well said.
