Durances and Appointed

[earthbrah]

Yeah Skurj Scourge, and I bet that there's a whole story on that coming in the next book, maybe the last one. THAT being Kastenessen and this mortal woman that he loved. Who was she? What was it about her that drove an immortal being of Earthpower to impart some of his power on her? Was it as simple as him loving her? (I bet not.) And how/why did she and the merewives get stuck in the sea? That in itself sounds like a sort of Durance.

It would seem that Kasty is the first one to be Appointed AND held in a Durance. Don't think we can really count the Collosus, because it doesn't seem like the Elohim thought it a possibility that that one would be bound by the trees. I could be wrong about this, of course. And if you're right about Appointeds having something to do with their relationship to Kastenessen, what was his relationship to the Elohim that got made into or put into the Colossus? (Which one of those came first in the timeline of the Land's history???)

And I bet it's not unthinkable that the Staff will be unmade. Then we'd have another Appointed and Duranced Elohim loose and free. But what about the Worm? If it is roused, and it does come to consume ONLY the Elohim, what does that mean for Findail (that is, if he's still stuck in the Staff)?

[Skurj Scourge]

And I bet it's not unthinkable that the Staff will be unmade. Then we'd have another Appointed and Duranced Elohim loose and free. But what about the Worm? If it is roused, and it does come to consume ONLY the Elohim, what does that mean for Findail (that is, if he's still stuck in the Staff)?

Kastenessen's release from the Durance may foreshadow Findail's escape from the SoL, but one thing comes to mind.

The Collosus was unmade by the Sunbane...I wonder what happened to the Appointed Elohim that was trapped within it? Perhaps she perished? If so, perhaps the "unmaking" of the structure that has trapped the Appointed presages the actual death (if possible) of the Elohim powering it?

This may be why SRD refered to Kast as "slipping" out of the Durance, rather than destroying it. There may be a good chance that the Durance itself still exisits, waiting to recapture Kast...or maybe some other unfortunate elohim...(my vote goes to the annoying Infelice)

[Ur Dead]

Durance = forced inprisonment.

[Fist and Faith]

Although Findail knew Kas, I don't remember it having anything to do with Findail being Appointed. Besides which Elohim DOESN'T know every other Elohim?


My imagination tells me that the Durance is a huge door - likely metaphorical - that requires an Elohim to keep powered, and to keep out the skurj. When he slipped out of it, the skurj could open the door. Which, of course, was his plan.

[wayfriend]

The problem I see with that theory, which I don't dislike, is it doesn't account for Kastenessens appointment. If it's just a door (and I think I see where you're going with that) what was Kastenessen's role?

Findail said "We were compelled to bind him to his place, reaving him of name and choice and time to set him as a keystone for the threatened foundation of the north. Thus was the fire capped, and the Earth preserved, and Kastenessen lost."

I think that a "door" is as good a description as a "keystone" or a "cap" here. But I think Kastennessen was transformed somehow so that he himself was that door/cap/keystone. Theorhetically, his Elohimish power would make that door nigh indestructable.

However, according to Roger, Kastennessen continued to transform himself to become partially skurj. Somehow, this broke the binding imposed by the other Elohim. If Kastenessen was the door, then his further transformation could have invalidated the binding, or rendered his new form insufficient for its purpose, or granted him some sort of power to change his circumstance.

And so, again as according to Roger, Kastennessen's becoming part skurj is sufficient in and of itself to release the other skurj.

[earthbrah]

Ok, here's where your quality posts are leading me:

1. The Colossus Appointed was Duranced by the trees, something the Elohim either foresaw or not.

2. Kastenessen's Appointment AND Durance were met out by the Elohim themselves.

3. Findail was Appointed, but Linden made the Durance that binds him when she melded him and Vain to make the Staff.

So, clearly, a Durance can be made by an Elohim, as well as escaped or unmade by one. Kastenessen's case is evidence for this. But I agree with Wayfriend here. Kastenessen was transformed somehow making HIM into the Durance. His nature was altered to somehow make him a binding unto himself. Which is why the only way for him to escape it was to, again, transform his very nature, which he did by becoming part skurj somehow. If he had destroyed it, he would have destroyed himself in the process. He is no longer an Elohim by definition.

I've also wondered what happened to the Elohim of the Colossus. We'll be seeing him before the end. And what about the Elohim who was Appointed to guard the One Tree? He doesn't seem to have been Duranced, just Appointed. If this is true, then he's the only one who managed to stay at the level of Appointment and not have to be Duranced. Like the Colossus Elohim, we'll be seeing this guy sometime, or at least learn more about him.

[I'm Murrin]

The Collosus, Findail, and Kastenessen were fundamentally different, I think. Kastenessen was bound forcefully, placed into his Durance; whereas the Collosus was reshaped by the trees themselves, becoming something different. Findail, too was transformed rather than bound, in becoming part of the staff. The impression I have received from comments on them within and without the books is that, for some reason (punishment?), Kastenessen was the only one of the three left possessed of his own self in his imprisonment.

[Relayer]

... Kastenessen and this mortal woman that he loved. Who was she? What was it about her that drove an immortal being of Earthpower to impart some of his power on her? Was it as simple as him loving her? (I bet not.) And how/why did she and the merewives get stuck in the sea? That in itself sounds like a sort of Durance.

I wonder if she didn't have her own agenda throughout that story. Whether she's Insequent or not, the way the stories are told she always appears to be Kasty's "victim" -- ie she's just a mortal woman and this all-powerful Elohim violated strictures by loving her, etc.

But did she seduce him? For all we know, he may not have wanted the relationship (or not at first)... maybe she already knew how to sing to him like the merewives do (this might contribute to how pissed he is at the rest of the Elohim -- if he feels like he was victimized or trapped). So what would she want from an Elohim? Power? Immortality? To infiltrate them? To corrupt them? An Insequent could certainly covet these things.

Inquiring minds want to know

[earthbrah]

Relayer wrote:

maybe she already knew how to sing to him like the merewives do

Damnable vixen! Accursed siren beast!!!

But yeah, you make a good point. It might stand to reason that she was an Insequent. Unlikely perhaps, but it would go even farther to explaining Esmer and his, uh, disposition towards everything.

[Fist and Faith]

The Collosus, Findail, and Kastenessen were fundamentally different, I think. Kastenessen was bound forcefully, placed into his Durance; whereas the Collosus was reshaped by the trees themselves, becoming something different. Findail, too was transformed rather than bound, in becoming part of the staff. The impression I have received from comments on them within and without the books is that, for some reason (punishment?), Kastenessen was the only one of the three left possessed of his own self in his imprisonment.

The reason is that it was the only way to get him to accept Appointment. The others recognized the necessity, and sacrificed themselves for a greater good. Findail, of course, was not happy about it, but did it anyway. The one who went to the One Forest may have been less upset, knowing that she would merge herself with the trees. There are worse fates, eh? The Guardian may have been free to be exactly who and what he had always been, the only restriction being his location. Which, for Elohim, is likely not such a big deal anyway.

[Skurj Scourge]

I'm not sure that I can go with the idea that Kast *IS* the Durance itself. I really think that we will see the Durance itself reappear and become an integral part of the conclusion of the saga. How else to handle a raving Elohim like Kast?

If the threat of the skurj was so great initially that the Elohim felt that an Appointment was needed, why would the threat now be less. If anything, it is more dire now that the skurj are in The Land.

IMHO, Either the already exisiting Durance will come into play or a new one will be created.

[earthbrah]

While I can't necessarily disagree with what you're saying, it still begs the question about the nature of a Durance, how it is performed.

Linden made one (though she didn't know it at the time). The trees made one, and I bet they knew what they were doing. The Elohim made one, and I am sure they knew what they were doing.

It seems that a Durance IS one of those kind of structures that the Elohim are so attracted to. If that's true, how is it that they made one themselves for Kastenessen? Does their inherent attraction to these things preclude their ability to make them? It would seem not.

[I'm Murrin]

Noone has ever said that the other Appointed Elohim required a Durance--the word has only ever been used in the books (IIRC--please correct me if I've forgotten something) to refer to Kastenessen's binding. The assumption that the others must be the same is not necessarily true.
IMO, the Durance was specifically for Kastenessen because he would not go willingly--the others accepted their fate, and so did not need to be held by a Durance.

[Skurj Scourge]

While I can't necessarily disagree with what you're saying, it still begs the question about the nature of a Durance, how it is performed.

Everyone knows...it's Magic!

But seriously...Perhaps it has something to do with need. When The Earth has a need that can't be handled another way, a Durance is created/called for. And the Earth acts though agents (trees, Linden, elohim themselves)

Perhaps the Elohim are not the ones who create the durance, but merely Appoint to fill it? I can't remember the exact working of the Kast story, but this strikes me as a possibility.

[wayfriend]

There is only one Durance. "Durance" means prison, but this is in respect to the skurj (whom are imprisoned by it), and not in respect to the Elohim who comprises it. (Vain said, "It is not death. It is purpose.")

Every appointed that we know about was eventually transformed into some structure that purposed to end a threat. One became the Colossus; one became the New Staff of Law; one became the Durance (IMO); one became ak-Haru (IMO).

The means in each case differed. One merely was available for when the will of the Forest acted; one knew his destiny but was allowed to try and find an alternative before he succombed; one was forced in retribution for unconscionable behavior. One we don't know about yet.

But the end result was the same. If your Appointed, then you are the one chosen to to transformed, if and should that eventuallity come about.

How can Kastenessen be dealt with now? Good question. But we might ask, what are the manacles, that were made by the same people that made Vain, the being that Findail could not escape, for? And we might ask, to what uses might Jeremiah's powers (if they are Jeremiah's and not the croyel's) be used?

[callback]

And we might ask, to what uses might Jeremiah's powers (if they are Jeremiah's and not the croyel's) be used?

My understanding is that Jeremiah has the ability to open a door to anywhere or anywhen, given that he has the right materials and motivation. So here are two really good uses for his powers.

1. Open a door for Foul to get past the Arch without destroying everything.

2. Open a door for the Creator to come through so he can kick Foul's butt.

Hmmm.... It's enough to make you wonder why Foul hasn't gone with use number 1 yet. Roger at least seemed to think that something like that would be possible.

[emotional leper]

And we might ask, to what uses might Jeremiah's powers (if they are Jeremiah's and not the croyel's) be used?

My understanding is that Jeremiah has the ability to open a door to anywhere or anywhen, given that he has the right materials and motivation. So here are two really good uses for his powers.

1. Open a door for Foul to get past the Arch without destroying everything.

2. Open a door for the Creator to come through so he can kick Foul's butt.

Hmmm.... It's enough to make you wonder why Foul hasn't gone with use number 1 yet. Roger at least seemed to think that something like that would be possible.

Necessity of freedom. If Foul used the Croyel to make Jeremiah do that, it would be no more effect than Foul doing it. He's a tool, and a tool's only as good as the skill of its user.

I bet what Foul wants is for Linden to free Jeremiah, so he can get Jeremiah of his own free will to do what Foul wants.

[wayfriend]

My understanding is that Jeremiah has the ability to open a door to anywhere or anywhen, given that he has the right materials and motivation.

AND he has a power to escape the Elohim's notice.

AND he has a rumored OTHER power which allows him to capture Elohim using their affinity for structure.

The last is the one that might be applied to K.

[Aleksandr]

The impression I have received from comments on them within and without the books is that, for some reason (punishment?), Kastenessen was the only one of the three left possessed of his own self in his imprisonment.

My own interpretation, but I think Kastenessen retained his separate consciousness precisely because he was unwilling. The Elohim of the Colossus and even Findail (ultimately at the very end) yielded and so ceased to exist as distinct beings on any level.

[amanibhavam]

And we might ask, to what uses might Jeremiah's powers (if they are Jeremiah's and not the croyel's) be used?

My understanding is that Jeremiah has the ability to open a door to anywhere or anywhen, given that he has the right materials and motivation. So here are two really good uses for his powers.

1. Open a door for Foul to get past the Arch without destroying everything.

2. Open a door for the Creator to come through so he can kick Foul's butt.

Hmmm.... It's enough to make you wonder why Foul hasn't gone with use number 1 yet. Roger at least seemed to think that something like that would be possible.

He hasn't been able to get the "right materials" for that door to be built - yet.
Maybe when TC & Linden finally get to Jeremiah they will be the right material for a door - for the Creator to be able to come into his Creation finally and kick Foul's butt big time.