Nature of the Ravers

[Nerdanel]

Let's not forget Findail's version of the events:

"In the nigh-unremembered past of the place which you deem the Land, the life was not the life of men and women, but of trees. One wide forest of sentience and passion filled all the region - one mind and heart alive in every leaf and bough of every tree among the many myriad throngs and the glory of the woods. And that life the Elohim loved.

"But a hate rose against the forest, seeking its destruction. And this was dire, for a tree may love and feel pain and cry out, but has few means of defense. The knowledge was lacking. Therefore we met, and from among us Appointed one to give her life to that forest. This she did by merging among the trees until they gained the knowledge they required.

"Their knowledge they employed to bind her in stone, exercising her name and being to form an interdict against that hate. Thus was she lost to herself and to her people, but the interdict remained while the will of the forest remained to hold it."

"The Colossus," Covenant breathed. "The Colossus of the Fall."

"Yes," Findail said.

"And when people started coming to the Land, started cutting down the trees as if they were just so much timber and difficulty, the forest used what it'd learned to create the Forestals in self-defense. Only it took too long, and there were too many people, and the Forestals weren't enough, they couldn't be everywhere at once, couldn't stop the many blind or cruel or simply unscrupulous axes and fires. They were lucky to keep the mind of the forest awake as long as they did."

"Yes," Findail said again.

I think here the "hate" that rose against the forest is clearly meant to predate humans in the Land by quite a bit. We can also deduce that the "hate" refers to the Ravers, since the Colossus of the Fall is elsewhere stated to have been made specifically against them. It is well possible that the Ravers didn't get names or their present identities until they had met and interacted with humans, but I think they existed in some form well before that.

I'm worried that we may have a continuity error here... Between Findail and Anele I'm however inclined to believe Findail has it right. Neither character has any reason to lie, but Findail was actually alive at the time and peripherally involved, while Anele is relying on second-hand information. Rock experiences time even slower than trees, so that it might miss fleeting things, and it is unknown if fracturing has a detrimental effect on the integrity of stony memories.

[wayfriend]

When TC and company traveled through the Sarangrave and encountered the lurker, where they close to Lifeswallower or somewhere in the middle of the Sarangrave?

Well, it IS the Lurker of the Sarangrave ...

Yes, it was in the Sarangrave. The Great Swamp is not on the path from Revelstone to Coercri. And chapter 23 is named "Sarangrave Flat".

OK, that makes sense, but if you'll recall Korik's Mission traveled through Lifeswallower to Seareach and were beset by the Lurker, so it seems that Sarangrave and Lifeswallower are one. At least to me.

Oh. When "Hyrim and company" travelled through the Sarangrave, they did end up in Lifeswallower. (Whereas "TC and company" did not.)

After the deaths of Lord Shetra and the Bloodguard Cerrin, there was rain in Sarangrave Flat all that day. It was cold and merciless, and it harmed the mission, for Lord Hyrim was sickened by the river water he had swallowed, and the rain made his sickness worse. [...]

Before the end of the day, the Lord was no longer strong enough to propel or steer the raft. Fever filled his eyes, and his lips were blue and trembling with cold. Sitting in the center of the raft, he hugged his staff as if for warmth. [...]

In the course of that day, they slowly passed out of the Sarangrave. Across the leagues, the Defiles Course was now growing constantly wider and shallower, dividing into more channels as islets and mudbanks increased. These channels were treacherous - shallow, barred with mudbanks, full of rotten logs and stumps - and the effort of navigating them slowed the raft still more. And around it, the jungle gradually changed. [...]

Thus the mission entered Lifeswallower, the Great Swamp.

As they moved, Korik kept the raft in the northern passages. In this way, he was able to begin traveling northeastward-toward Seareach - and to avoid the heart of Lifeswallower.

Notice that, at this point of the Chronicles, Sarangrave Flat is distinctly NOT part of Lifeswallower. The Lurker dwells in the Sarangrave, making it a place of malevolence if not evil. But Lifeswallower, on the other hand, is merely difficult, not unnaturally inimical.

[wayfriend]

Let's not forget Findail's version of the events

Very interesting! According to Findail, first came the hatred, then came the Colossus, and THEN came people to the Land who axed down the trees.

I'm worried that we may have a continuity error here... Between Findail and Anele I'm however inclined to believe Findail has it right.

If we accept Findail's version of events, then the whole idea that the Ravers were created as Anele described cannot be true at all. For the Ravers would have existed before people came to the Land.

Which would mean that the history revealed in the bones of the Earth cannot be trusted or taken literally.

Whereas, in accepting Anele's version of events, we merely need to allow that his story was focusing on the Elohim involved, and not concerned with laying things out chronologically.

It's my belief that Donaldson has made Anele's story the true story. What he sees in the Runes of the Earth is supposed to be authoritative. If what he wrote 25 years ago doesn't exactly fit, then he has accepted the discrepency and moved on ... he's admitted that he has done so before.

[Nerdanel]

After thinking about this some more, I have come to a conclusion that there isn't a continuity error.

"The trees," he told the gathering shadows, "could neither strike nor flee. Their limbs were not formed to wield fire and iron." Findail had said, A tree may know love and feel pain and cry out, but has few means of defense. "Yet even that remnant of wakefulness which remained was vast by mortal measure, and its power was likewise vast. Capable then as well as aware, the One Forest turned its loathing and ire, not against the deaf ignorance of humankind, but rather against the Ravers.

(Emphasis mine.)

SRD must have been 100% aware of the Findail passage in order to quote directly from it. This means that any discrepancy cannot be an accident. In fact, I think the Findail quote is there for no other reason than to assure us that the SRD just didn't forget about Findail's version.

I think the discrepancies between the versions could be smoothed over if the first humans in the Land were primitive families of hunter-gatherers, while Doriendor Corishev was the area's first real kingdom with a top-down power structure that could be subverted by a Raver. Without that sort of hierarchy they would have had a hard time getting humans to cut trees, since they couldn't just possess someone and make them do it. Instead, they could possess an advisor to the king and persuade the king to order his subjects to cut trees en masse. Now that's effective. Counterintuitively, the One Forest's creation of the Colossus actually impelled the Ravers to become more effective than ever, to the point that the rate of destruction became too fast for its slow mind to respond in time.

Ravers as the instigators of the human civilization?

[wayfriend]

But Anele's version is very specific in that it indicates that the One Forest was being axed by men, in the Land, in pain and crying out, before Ravers appeared. (See my timeline thread above for the quotes.) And that this led directly to the creation of the Ravers, and that this in turn led directly to the reaction of the Colossus.

[Guest]

Exceptional work Wayfriend!! Thus is the worth of The Watch demonstrated again!!!



I do not have the passages handy to quote, but it seems to me that the Sarangrave has always been there as a watery wasteland to trap the unwary...it simply was not always malevolent.

IIRC, Foul had placed evil banes in the Earth at the time of its creation as part of his scheme to destroy the heart of the Earth. Over the millenia the polluted filth of the weightwarrens spread through the Great Swamp and into the Flat, giving birth to the malevolence that led to the creation of the Ravers - their father indeed in that sense. My feeling is that Foul had planned to occupy the Lower Land from the very beginning of Time, even if he may not always have done so, as a counterpoint to the power of the Upper Land. Some of his earliest perversions, slow to bear fruit, had already been planted in the bowels of Mt. Thunder...which created a breeding ground for his future armies as well as his highest servants.

[Nerdanel]

Here is my new synthesis:

1. The Lurker of the Sarangrave Flat is born from unspecified banes under Mount Thunder that are washed away by erosion and accumulate in the swampy delta of Ruinwash.

2. The One Forest covers all of the Land, save for Lifeswallower where the Lurker rules. The Lurker wants to expand its control but is rebuffed by the powerful spirit of the One Forest. The Lurker develops a grudge but can do little about it.

3. Primitive hunter-gatherer humans arrive in the Land. They do not do much damage at first, but the Lurker takes note of their stone axes, mobility, opposable thumbs, and relatively weak wills.

4. The Lurker extends its spirit to influence humans so that they would cut and burn the One Forest.

5. Pieces of the Lurker's spirit, "three brothers of one birth", gain independence, names, and separate identities as they possess individual humans and lose their connection to their greater self. The three Ravers are more human-like in thought than the Lurker, but retain its goal of destroying the One Forest.

6. The Elohim hear the cry of the One Forest and Appoint one of their number to save it.

7. The One Forest learns much lore from the Appointed Elohim and puts it (and her) into use by creating the Colossus of the Fall to hold an interdict that prevents the Ravers from entering the Upper Land. By this time the Lower Land has already been deforestated.

8. The Ravers are very unhappy about the new development. They start to think of ways with which they could make someone do their will without directly possessing them.

9. Sheol nurtures the human kingdom of Doriendor Corishev and possibly is the one to introduce agriculture. The numbers of the humans expand greatly.

10. The humans of Doriendor Corishev cut down a lot of trees at a speed which stuns the slow-thinking One Forest. The One Forest researches ways to counter non-possessed humans that are immune to the Colossus of the Fall.

11. The One Forest creates the Forestals. By this time, though, the term "One Forest" is no more, since only a few remnants of it are left.

12. Sheol makes several generations of kings of Doriendor Corishev go to war against Garroting Deep and Caerroil Wildwood. Due to favorable terrain, Caerroil Wildwood manages to slaughter several armies in Cravenhaw. Garroting Deep gains a black reputation among humans and a name to match. Meanwhile, Doriendor Corishev falls into a gradual decline and desertification due to the destruction of aquifers.

13. The Queen of Doriendor Corishev starts a rebellion against the King, which leads to Berek discovering Earthpower and the start of the era of the Old Lords.

And so on.

Looking at this, we can see that the One Forest lost because it never acted, only reacted.

[Aleksandr]

I got the impression that the Lurker was a single entity controlling the Sarangrave.

In the First Chronicles the Lurker appears to be a new phenomenon. No one knows anything about it until Lords Hyrim and Shetra encounter it. The Giants have been crossing the Sarangrave for centuries but apparently had no awareness of it. There are no ancient tales of lore hinting at its existence. The Bloodguard are similarly ignorant, as they would not be if the Lurker had been a known peril in Kevin's day.
Could it be that the Lurker was created by the Sarangrave in (vaguely) the same manner that One Forest created the Forestals, in order to express its will?

[wayfriend]

That's a very intriguing idea Aleksandr. I like it for the symmetry.

Certainly there's nothing in the Raver origin stories that requires a lurker in those times. Only a "malevolence".

And the appearance of the lurker seems to coincide with the demise of the Giants. As if Foul didn't want the Lords to reach Seareach.

[wayfriend]

Bump for HLT.

[High Lord Tolkien]

Ravers are responsible for pretty much every bad thing that has happened in the history of the Land.

And I mean BIG things, not just "small" acts like commanding Foul's armies.

The brought the Viles to self loathing.
Then the Demondim.
Then the Cavewrights, probably.
Taking over Berek's King (I'm not sure how significant this is though as of yet)
Then destruction of the Giants of the Land.
The freeing of Kastenessen.

Any more serious ones that I missed?
Lets leave the simple acts of single murder and wholesale slaughter out for now.

And what are they?
I know there's no answer but what are everyone's theories?

And forget about my previous ideas, I'm saying right now that the Manacles are for the Ravers.
The urViles have a score to settle with them like no one's business!

[dlbpharmd]

The freeing of Kastenessen.

Do we know this for certain?

[High Lord Tolkien]

The freeing of Kastenessen.

Do we know this for certain?

Esmer said that the Ravers (one of them I assume) gave Kastenessen the idea to blend with the Skruji (spelling).
Even though it would cause him endless pain he did it.

It was near the end of FR.

[dlbpharmd]

Ah, ok, thanks!

[Vraith]

I got the impression that the Lurker was a single entity controlling the Sarangrave.

In the First Chronicles the Lurker appears to be a new phenomenon. No one knows anything about it until Lords Hyrim and Shetra encounter it. The Giants have been crossing the Sarangrave for centuries but apparently had no awareness of it. There are no ancient tales of lore hinting at its existence. The Bloodguard are similarly ignorant, as they would not be if the Lurker had been a known peril in Kevin's day.
Could it be that the Lurker was created by the Sarangrave in (vaguely) the same manner that One Forest created the Forestals, in order to express its will?

This is much like my general impression...long ago, what is now the "Lurker" was simply a more natural kind of predator (and younger and weaker) so it might have been there, but wouldn't have attempted to "hunt" Giants, Lords, or Bloodguard (would likely have avoided them, as wild wolves generally avoid people except in dire circumstances) But over time, due to seepage from the assorted banes...after all, Lifeswallower borders the Sarangrave...it became more aware, powerful, and corrupt. Another possibility, with the same result, the Lurker was born/made/corrupted in Lifeswallower, and migrated into the Sarangrave, needing or wanting new/better hunting grounds (and of course Foul would take advantage of that...might in fact have encouraged it, having some gift for foretelling)
I haven't gone back to the text to really justify this, it's more an impression I've always had.

[wayfriend]

"We have been aided," Esmer admitted. "The extremes of Kastenessen's excruciation madden him. His thoughts do not cohere. But he has been counseled by moksha Raver. Jehannum serves him, winning connivance from Thomas Covenant's son as from Cavewights and other powers. At the Raver's urging, my grandsire severed his hand to exalt Thomas Covenant's son. The magic to raise Kevin's Dirt from the roots of Mount Thunder was Kastenessen's, and mine. But the ploy was moksha Jehannum's."

So a Raver counciled Kastenessen to do the hand thing and the Dirt thing.

But I think the escape from the Durance was Lord Foul.

[shadowbinding shoe]

Isn't the Lurker of the Sarangrave waked when Korrik's mission tries to pass? To me that meant it had existed before this time and has slumbered until this point. I would guess either the Old High Lords (Damelon? Berek when he made the Staff?) made it go to sleep with their power or the Desecration injured the Lurker just like it did the rest of the Land. Also the Giantish road through Sarangrave was built to protect travelers from the malice of the area but proved insufficient when Korrik's mission used it.

The Lurker was a surprise to Korrik's mission because it has been so long since it was active.

[wayfriend]

Bump for mubble.