OK, so the Land's real. So how....

[Furls Fire]

I don't think Covenant was always the Arch. He didn't become the Arch until after Foul killed him and tried to break the arch with Covenant's ring. It was then that he actually became the Keystone to the Arch, it's protector if you will. Covenant became wild magic then. He is the white gold. But that wasn't always so. So, I don't believe the Creator "created" him to be the Arch. I believe Covenant was chosen by the Creator because of his leprosy, his bitterness. The Creator knew that such things give people strength. He knew that he needed a strong adversary for Foul. Who else but Covenant could have trekked thru that awful winter, made it to Foul's Creche half dead, and then defeat him? All the while not believing in any of it. Somehow, I don't think a "normal" person could have done that.

Anyway, I'm drifting here. This was all choice on Covenant's part. I don't believe the Creator chose Covenant to be the Keystone. Covenant chose to sacrifice himself to Foul, gave Foul the ring (all choice), then Foul was the one that chose to keep blasting Covenant with his own power while he blocked the Arch. Foul could have said "avant shade." and sent Coveanant away. But he didn't. Could have the Creator foreseen all this when he first met Covenant there in front of Bell Telephone on LFB?? Somehow, I don't think so. Unless of course, the Creator created TC in the first place.....but then, there goes Covenant's free will in the Land, he becomes the Creator's "tool". Which contridicts everything. Covenant had to be free to save or damn...

[Skyweir]

This was all choice on Covenant's part. I don't believe the Creator chose Covenant to be the Keystone. Covenant chose to sacrifice himself to Foul, gave Foul the ring (all choice), then Foul was the one that chose to keep blasting Covenant with his own power while he blocked the Arch. Foul could have said "avant shade." and sent Coveanant away. But he didn't. Could have the Creator foreseen all this when he first met Covenant there in front of Bell Telephone on LFB?? Somehow, I don't think so. Unless of course, the Creator created TC in the first place.....but then, there goes Covenant's free will in the Land, he becomes the Creator's "tool". Which contridicts everything. Covenant had to be free to save or damn...

YES YES YES!! .. brilliant!!

ofcourse and so pure and simple!! meant respectfully

Simple in that .. yes that is exactly it!! That pervasive and requisite element .. CHOICE .. again

Yes TC wasnt made to be the AoT .. as this would have made him a predetermined and predestined factor .. in the entire equasion!!

This is so jolly exciting I can barely stand it!! LOL ..

but you have hit the nail squarely on the head .. and the penny has just dropped for me .. so its quite the revelation as far as I'm concerned

This demostrates persuasively .. that TC wasn't created by the Creator and designed to interact with the Land .. per se He was chosen however .. as LA was chosen .. but he had to exercise his own volition to realise his potential .. To save or damn the earth ..

and as you rightly say .. he did!!

yes yes yes .. TC's choice which the Creator himself speaks of in TPTP's A Lepers End .. i think *shrug* .. determined his role in the Land ..

determined his becoming the white gold .. wild magic ..

now what is puzzling .. is just how does that work? Is he the white gold as a result of his will .. his determination .. his sacrifice?

mmm .. fascinating stuff .. now I got a lot more to think about LOL

[[Syl]]

TC was and is the White Gold/Wild Magic. He was useless to both Foul and the creator from the start without that very quality. He had the power to save or to damn the land, and I don't think there could be an in-between.

"He intends you to be my final foe. He chose, groveler, with a might in your hands such as no mortal has ever held before -- chose you to destroy me. But he will find that I am not so easily mastered. You have might -- wild magic which preserves your life at this moment -- but you will never know what it is. You will not be able to fight me at the last. No, you are the victim of his expectations, and I cannot free you by death -- not yet. But we can turn that strength against him, and rid him of the Earth entirely."

"The Lords sing an ancient lore-song concerning the bearer of white gold. I remember only a part of it, thus:

And he who wields white wild magic gold
is a paradox --
for he is everything and nothing,
hero and fool,
potent, helpless --
and with the one word of truth or treachery,
he will save or damn the Earth
because he is mad and sane,
cold and passionate,
lost and found.

"It's just a ring. To remind me of everything I have to live without. It's got no more -- wild magic -- than a rock."

There is wild magic graven in every rock, contained for white gold to unleash or control gold, rare metal, not born of the Land, nor ruled, limited, subdued by the Law with which the Land was created (for the Land is beautiful, as if it were a strong soul's dream of peace and harmony, and Beauty is not possible without discipline and the Law which gave birth to Time is the Land's Creator's self-control) but keystone rather, pivot, crux for the anarchy out of which Time was made, and with Time Earth, and with Earth those who people it: wild magic restrained in every particle of life, and unleashed or controlled by gold (not born of the Land) because that power is the anchor of the arch of life that spans and masters Time: and white -- white gold, not ebon, ichor, incarnadine, viridian because white is the hue of bone: structure of flesh, discipline of life.
This power is a paradox, because Power does not exist without Law, and wild magic has no Law; and white gold is a paradox, because it speaks for the bone of life, but has no part of the Land. And he who wields white wild magic gold is a paradox for he is everything and nothing, hero and fool, potent, helpless and with the one word of truth or treachery he will save or damn the Earth because he is mad and sane, cold and passionate, lost and found.

It was not a thing to be commanded, employed well or ill as skill or awkwardness allowed. Now that it was awake, it was a part of him, an expression of himself. He did not need to focus it, aim it; bone and blood, it arose from his passion.

The wild magic has
been fused into me. I am wild magic. In a sense, I've become
the keystone of the Arch.

Ok, what I'm getting at with this plethora of quotes... There is the source/origin of power - the keystone (I really doubt the AoT is an actual arch. I think it's more of a concept); the power - wild magic; the tool - white gold; and the wielder - Thomas Covenant. They're all used fairly interchangably, especially once TC is fused with the white gold. Kind of like light in that 'There was no light, so I used my light to light the way.'

There could theoretically be almost as many wielders as there are white gold rings so long as they originate outside the AoT (and other than the symbolism, the keystone could've been anything, say an orange or even the color orange, so long as it didn't exist in the land). I say whether or not the ring could be used by somebody like Lena, Foamfollower, et al is questionable, but I'd side more with the yes answer, because theoretically, Covenant could be used too.

Eh, enough rambling for now.

[Tulizar]

I never once considered that The Land was not real. Despite the convincing arguments, my take is that TC's world and the Land are simply two distinct worlds. Two of many in the universe.

I always believed that TC was free to choose in the Land. Although he knew Foul was insidious enough to ensare his opponents with their every step forward, TC was in control of every step he took in the Land--even if he knew it played into Foul's hands. Nobody pulled his strings while journeying to the ultimate confrontation with Foul. Despite constantly dealing with the possibility that he actually is not dreaming, TC still thinks things through (for the most part) without the hand of fate guiding him.

I do wonder, though, why the Creator of the Land would choose TC as the Land's saviour. It always bothered me. I mean, TC is certainly a worthy candidate--he's proven that he can survive, he is intelligent, he can adapt to extreme conditions--but there must be more to it. The Creator could've picked anyone to save his world. Why TC?

I don't think the Creator created TC, but perhaps he did influence him. I don't think there's any specific text that supports this, but it is the only way I can reconcile the fact that TC was chosen. Since the Creator wasn't able to cross the AoT to rid the Land of Foul, why wouldn't he do his best to prepare TC to do so? The Land was his creation, his child, of course he's going to do whatever is necessary to save it. I don't know the extent of the Creator's power in TC's world, but it does make sense that he would do whatever was within his means to prepare TC for the Land. Whether infecting him with leprosy or subtlely nudging TC in certain directions to insure that he developed into the Land's savior, the Creator might have done more than simply pick the right man for the job. And unlike his life in the Land, where self-doubt was the norm thanks to Foul's uncanny ability to make him question his own free will , TC would be totally oblivious to the actual influence of the Creator in the "real world."

[Furls Fire]

This was all choice on Covenant's part. I don't believe the Creator chose Covenant to be the Keystone. Covenant chose to sacrifice himself to Foul, gave Foul the ring (all choice), then Foul was the one that chose to keep blasting Covenant with his own power while he blocked the Arch. Foul could have said "avant shade." and sent Coveanant away. But he didn't. Could have the Creator foreseen all this when he first met Covenant there in front of Bell Telephone on LFB?? Somehow, I don't think so. Unless of course, the Creator created TC in the first place.....but then, there goes Covenant's free will in the Land, he becomes the Creator's "tool". Which contridicts everything. Covenant had to be free to save or damn...

YES YES YES!! .. brilliant!!

ofcourse and so pure and simple!! meant respectfully

Simple in that .. yes that is exactly it!! That pervasive and requisite element .. CHOICE .. again

YES! I'm really into this choice concept.. LOL!!

Seriously, I can't see how this was all preordained by the Creator. There was just too many "what if's" involved. One choice led to another and so on. And I"m not just talking about Covenant becoming the Keystone. I'm talking about every choice or "non" choice he made in the Land. He may have been manipulated by Foul, but he wasn't anyone's "tool". Add to that all the choices the characters around him made that influenced his. Lena, Atarian, Triock, Elena, Mhoram, Foamfollower, Hile Troy, Bannor, Brinn, Sunder, Hollian....etc...They all contributed to his ultimate choice to save or damn. Or not act at all. The Creator had no way of knowing what he was going to do. And, as far as him becoming the Keystone...that was pure chance. JMHO

[Furls Fire]

Am I being redundant??

[Skyweir]

LOL .. rofl .. heavens no!!

we are all basically in agreement .. lol .. great minds .. or so they say

we've cracked on to something really profound .. or just really obvious .. either way .. we've fair cracked on to it

[Landwaster]

Ok so the question is (was) :

If Covenant had the ring when he was stabbed and stuff, and Linden woke up with it, how IN THE TERMS OF THE REAL WORLD did it get from one to the other?

- Linden may have woken up, drowsy, and gone and grabbed the ring off Covenant's limp form, before she fully came to. IE : No recollection but she actually went and go it.
- Her unconscious, his life eking out of him slowly, side by side on the sacrifical rock, the ring may have fallen off him in the incident and she may have moved restlessly while in some form of stupor and ilanded her hand on it.

There's a couple of possibilities, anyways.

Now, re the beard growth, I would say that there was no change to his appearance while dying in the real world. I think someone said above, he changed his clothes here and there too, crikey he had a bit of a "getting to know you" with Linden while on the ship ... but none of these things would have been apparent in the real world.

Either it all happens in his (and/or her) head and its not real, or it all happens in their heads and it IS real, or perhaps the movement occurred on a parallel universe (eg superstring theory).

Forgive me if I misread the question ... also I sort of browsed the replies without spending a heck of a long time on them.

[Tulizar]

Seriously, I can't see how this was all preordained by the Creator. There was just too many "what if's" involved. One choice led to another and so on. And I"m not just talking about Covenant becoming the Keystone. I'm talking about every choice or "non" choice he made in the Land. He may have been manipulated by Foul, but he wasn't anyone's "tool". Add to that all the choices the characters around him made that influenced his. Lena, Atarian, Triock, Elena, Mhoram, Foamfollower, Hile Troy, Bannor, Brinn, Sunder, Hollian....etc...They all contributed to his ultimate choice to save or damn. Or not act at all. The Creator had no way of knowing what he was going to do. And, as far as him becoming the Keystone...that was pure chance. JMHO

I agree with this. Ultimately TC did his own thing, as did his companions, while in the Land. In an earlier post someone said that Foul was not precognizant, he was simply a strategic genius---he predicted human nature to the point that everyone seemed to play into his hands. However, I do think TC knew he could become the keystone. After his caamora, he was finally aware of his full potential--he knew his purpose; knew how to deal with Foul.

At the end of WGW, he confronted Foul with a sense of knowledge of Foul's actions. TC sort of switched roles with Foul. He predicted Foul's moves. He played Foul, just as Foul played nearly everyone throughout the TCTC. I don't know for sure if TC expected to become the keystone, but he seemed to possess some sort of secret. He had something big in store, and when Foul was blasting him in the AoT, TC accepted it. Maybe he expected Foul to simply drain himself, or perhaps he knew he would be fused with the AoT.

I wholeheartedly do believe TC was free to choose--especially in the Land where the Creator could not influence him. I do, however, think it makes sense that the Creator molded TC while not in the Land. He had the ability to do so. Maybe TC wasn't a tool, but if the Creator was going to choose TC to save his Land, why not prepare his hero?

[Skyweir]

I wholeheartedly do believe TC was free to choose--especially in the Land where the Creator could not influence him. I do, however, think it makes sense that the Creator molded TC while not in the Land. He had the ability to do so. Maybe TC wasn't a tool, but if the Creator was going to choose TC to save his Land, why not prepare his hero?

mmm .. this is a distinct possibilty .. and yet the Creator explained to TC a creator's policy of non-intervention. If the Creator did indeed contrive to mould TC into his tool .. then I think this would be at odds with his own stated desire of minimal intervention or compulsion ..

I am not suggesting yet .. that it wouldnt be possible .. but think about it .. what actually are we saying? That the Creator contrived the ill that came upon him in our world? .. his leperosy, his losses, his grief ..

It just doesnt sit well with me .. *searches for TPTP* .. mmm .. its taken off .. !!damnation!!

[Fist and Faith]

Landwaster,
One possibility that was suggested was that the ring is the only physical thing that actually goes between the two Earths. When Covenant is summoned to the Land, the ring disappears from his unconscious body. (There was probably never anyone looking at his ring when he lost consciousness, and probably nobody who knew him well enough to know that he always wore his ring was ever there to notice it missing from his unconscious body.) In the 2nd Chronicles, he gave it to Linden while in the Land, and when she woke up with it, it was now in her hand.

Who knows? Could be.

Someone else suggested that there are now two rings.

Or, maybe at the moment Covenant gave the ring to Foul, it disappeared from his hand (Again, who was looking at his hand at the moment?), and when Linden picked it up, it appeared in her unconscious hand.

[Skyweir]

lol .. it is wild magic

[Landwaster]

Landwaster,
One possibility that was suggested was that the ring is the only physical thing that actually goes between the two Earths. When Covenant is summoned to the Land, the ring disappears from his unconscious body. (There was probably never anyone looking at his ring when he lost consciousness, and probably nobody who knew him well enough to know that he always wore his ring was ever there to notice it missing from his unconscious body.) In the 2nd Chronicles, he gave it to Linden while in the Land, and when she woke up with it, it was now in her hand.

Top idea. Definitely no-one would have seen what happened to the ring because everybody split when Covenant ran into the fray.

Someone else suggested that there are now two rings.

Ooooooooooooooh I like

Or, maybe at the moment Covenant gave the ring to Foul, it disappeared from his hand (Again, who was looking at his hand at the moment?), and when Linden picked it up, it appeared in her unconscious hand.

Yeah I don't like this one, seems like a cop-out.

[Landwaster]

lol .. it is wild magic

Wild and unbridled magic, no less.

[Skyweir]

lol .. or just far out .. freakin' well .. WILD

[Gil galad]

I like the idea of only the ring and TC's conciousness going to the land. Maybe his conciousntess is bound to the ring since he 'is' the white gold?

[Tulizar]

I wholeheartedly do believe TC was free to choose--especially in the Land where the Creator could not influence him. I do, however, think it makes sense that the Creator molded TC while not in the Land. He had the ability to do so. Maybe TC wasn't a tool, but if the Creator was going to choose TC to save his Land, why not prepare his hero?

mmm .. this is a distinct possibilty .. and yet the Creator explained to TC a creator's policy of non-intervention. If the Creator did indeed contrive to mould TC into his tool .. then I think this would be at odds with his own stated desire of minimal intervention or compulsion ..

I am not suggesting yet .. that it wouldnt be possible .. but think about it .. what actually are we saying? That the Creator contrived the ill that came upon him in our world? .. his leperosy, his losses, his grief ..

It just doesnt sit well with me .. *searches for TPTP* .. mmm .. its taken off .. !!damnation!!

I know, the thought is a bit unsettling to me too. And I really doubt it happened since there isn't enough strong evidence to prove it did. I guess it disturbs me that despite this policy of non-intervention, the Creator does insinuate himself into TC's life. If he goes this far, might he not take another step and nudge TC here and there to ensure he is mentally and physically fit to challenge Despite in the Land? I suppose I've only wondered about this because if I were the Creator, I'd probably do just that. Of course I'm looking at it from the perspective of a selfish, dopey human, whereas the Creator is (hopefully) the embodiment of wisdom and compassion.

[Tulizar]

I like the idea of only the ring and TC's conciousness going to the land. Maybe his conciousntess is bound to the ring since he 'is' the white gold?

I like that idea too. The ring was more than a piece of jewelry, it was linked to TC and the Land. I always assumed it went with TC to the Land, then was picked up by LA and that was that. She retained it when she went back to her world.

Despite TC's physical form remaining here, his consciousness was real to the inhabitants of the Land. I think the same could be said about a visitor from the Land to our world. Only their conciousness would travel here yet they would seem real to us.

[Skyweir]

tulizar i like your explantion of TC's translation to the Land ..

as for the Creator .. I have been thinking about what you wrote .. and I guess it could be so .. but if we go by the Creators own statements at the end of TPTP as he explains his role to TC .. he says that he was restrained from influencing TC .. and that he went as far as he could appearing as the old beggar man with questionable dental hygene

so if that was such a risky thing for the Creator .. and he said .. it was pretty much as far as he could in good conscience go .. as Creators have rules and law to adhere to too ..

I cant see him being more involved .. nor insinuating himself into TC's life .. and manipulating his circumstances to enable him as the champion he would need ..

its all good .. and I really like your use of the word 'insinuate' .. lol .. very apt

and if I could find my TPTP .. I would try and quote the verses where the Creator explains to TC about the restrictions on his involvement or contrivance in TC's world ..

do you think the Creator of TC's world and the Creator of the Land are maybe buds .. and they allowed a little give and take .. when it came to helping each other out?..

like a Creator's Club ..

[Fist and Faith]

like a Creator's Club ..

Way cool!!!