OK, so the Land's real. So how....

Post by **Fist and Faith** » Thu Sep 11, 2003 12:37 pm

How did the ring get into Linden's hand? Do you suppose, if someone was watching the two unconscious (or 1 unconscious, 1 dead) bodies, they would have seen the ring float through the air from one to the other? Or did it just disappear from Covenant's hand and appear on Linden's, like a transporter on Star Trek?

And in TIW, if someone had been with Covenant's unconscious body, would they have seen him grow a beard REAL fast, then lose it when we saw him shave before Elena drank the EarthBlood?

Just idle speculation.

Post by **Lord Mhoram** » Thu Sep 11, 2003 12:40 pm

Good question. I'd have to go with the Trek theory and say that the ring just switched hands, so to speak.

As for Covenant in TIW....

I have no idea.

LOL

Post by **Furls Fire** » Thu Sep 11, 2003 12:55 pm

oh sigh...

Fist, Linden picked up the ring in the Land and brought it back with her. she wasn't wearing it, it was IN her hand...

"...clutching her wedding ring in her hand..."

siiiiiiiigh

Post by **Fist and Faith** » Thu Sep 11, 2003 1:00 pm

Oh, a WORLD of difference! Thanks for clearing that up! pththththth

Now - How did the ring get from Covenant's unconscious/dead finger to IN Linden's unconscious hand?

Post by **Furls Fire** » Thu Sep 11, 2003 1:09 pm

It doesn't matter. She picked it up in the Land. He took it off. At least THAT one he took off. Who says that Covenant still isn't wearing the "real world" one? I've considered that too. Berenford and Linden never go over and look at him closely.

But then there is this: The ring is from our world. It's real both here and in the Land. If it wasn't, it couldn't have been used. So whether Covenant was unconscious in this world doesn't matter. He took it off in the Land, gave it to Foul who dropped it, then Linden picked it up. Linden then brought it back to our world. The changing of it's hands took place totally in the Land, because it went to the Land. It wasn't in our world at all while they were there.

I lean toward the latter. I don't think it "ghosted" or "beamed" over to Linden from Covenant while he lay dying.

Anyway, that's my take on it

Post by **Worm of Despite** » Thu Sep 11, 2003 1:38 pm

Hi.

The Land's not real.

Bye.

Post by **Furls Fire** » Thu Sep 11, 2003 1:53 pm

LOL!!!

Post by **Fist and Faith** » Thu Sep 11, 2003 3:03 pm

Ah, I see what you're saying! The moment Covenant loses consciousness and is summoned, his ring disappears? And at the end of WGW, it reappeared in Linden's hand when she regained consciousness? That's a pretty cool theory.

So it's not like Covenant was unconscious for hours, and, if anyone had been closely watching, they would have said, "Wait, didn't that hand have a ring on it 15 minutes ago?" because the ring disappeared before they started watching him. It would have been extremely unlikely for anyone to be looking right at the ring when he was summoned.

So the ring, as might be expected, is the link between Earths, the only physical thing that is ever in both. Covenant's & Linden's minds are in both, of course, but not their physical bodies. I guess new bodies are made for them.

Heh. Which reminds me of my theory of Foul - the Laws of that reality demand that any being from outside that reality have a physical body while visiting.

Post by **Furls Fire** » Thu Sep 11, 2003 3:31 pm

Right, the ring would have to actually be there in the Land. It couldn't just be...oh...hmmm...don't know how to put it...

thinking....

thinking....

It couldn't just be the image of the ring, or the "thought" of the ring. It had to BE the ring. Foul needed it. The Creator needed it. Covenant needed it and Linded needed it to actually "be" there.

Not sure I'm making sense. But, if the ring was physically in the Land, then it wasn't in our reality. Also, because it was not "born of the Land" it could come and go...not like anything else in the Land. Like the Saff of Law, Linden couldn't bring that back because it was of the Land. Am I making sense?

KaosArcana · Post by **KaosArcana** » Thu Sep 11, 2003 4:14 pm

Furl's Fire:

Not sure I'm making sense. But, if the ring was physically in the Land, then it wasn't in our reality. Also, because it was not "born of the Land" it could come and go...not like anything else in the Land. Like the Saff of Law, Linden couldn't bring that back because it was of the Land. Am I making sense?

If the Land is real, it has to be a completely separate reality from
Covenant's world. For one thing, we know that he doesn' t just vanish
from this reality when he's summoned to the Land ...

1. During his first trip to the Land, his body was in a hospital.

2. In TPTP, the family of the little girl take his unconscious body
back to the hospital where he's given treatment for snakebite.

3. In TOT, Covenant sends Linden back to try to save his body from
bleeding to death.

Also, there's a point in LFB where Covenant loses his clothing ... but he
has that clothing when he's released from the hospital.

I know that a lot of people here don't agree with me, but I always
found Linden walking away with Covenant's ring to be a mistake. It
felt like SRD was cheating, changing the rules at the last minute.

So I decided that Linden copped the ring when Berenford wasn't
looking.

Post by **Worm of Despite** » Thu Sep 11, 2003 4:14 pm

I think it was just a continuity error SRD overlooked. Let's let it slip . . . NOT!!! The Land ain't real, folks! Face the bleeding facts!

Post by **Furls Fire** » Thu Sep 11, 2003 4:25 pm

hehehe...I don't know if it is or not. But it sure is fun trying to "prove" it is. I honestly don't know if what I said about the ring being in Linden's hand is acurate. It's just my own little theory. I'd like to think the Land is real and that she really did bring the ring back with her from Kiril Threndor.

I'm afraid the only one who has the answer to this is SRD...and I doubt he'll tell us...LOL!! I think he really likes making us do this

Post by **Fist and Faith** » Thu Sep 11, 2003 4:39 pm

Well, the premise of the Land being real just doesn't work for me, for the reasons I've argued all along. But Linden waking up with the ring doesn't leave much room for argument for me, so now I need to figure out how to make sense of it. Kaos, I'm with you, thinking it was a mistake. But what can I do? SRD absolutely refuses to check with me before publishing!!

FF, I really like your idea!

Post by **Skyweir** » Thu Sep 11, 2003 5:16 pm

its not a mistake at all!! you just need to have an appreciation for alter-dimensional quantum physics .. ;

The World TC hails from is real .. The Land he is transported to is real ..

There are 2 realities that share a place in a coinciding time. Time is measured at different rates depending on where in this universe it is located.

A day on Mars does not equate in length to a day on earth .. hence the time differentiation between TC's world and that of the Land ..

Secondly .. as for the synchronous existence theory .. well think about this ..

electricity may be generated at one location but we know that energy can be transported to supply homes, businesses and industry etc.

ok this is a pretty crass example .. but work with me here .. We want to see things on a linear scale because that is our only frame of reference .. but with TC it is not unlike the electricity analogy on some level ..

TC is summoned to the Land .. a physical representation or aspect of himself remains in his world .. in accord with the laws of that universe .. and 'he' is transported to the Land .. another universe ..

He .. his essence .. his essential being .. his intelligence .. his aspect assumes an existence in this other dimension ..

His aspect is akin to that of his 'real' world .. if he was a toad in his world he would be a toad in the Land. .. all things work through ultimate law ..

His being may not be exactly like his being in our World .. but it is a being of substance as opposed to LF who is not .. <all the time>

As for the ring going with him .. the ring is a specific substance in the Land .. wild magic .. his ring belongs to TC's aspect .. and thus is a part of him .. and later becomes a part of Linden .. as they merge into a union .. of 2 souls .. if you will ..

As for the ring in his world .. the physical ring one would suspect remained attached to his finger and its aspect is transported with him to and from the Land .. but with wild magic a number of variables may apply

Linden's acquiring the ring .. is evidence that the exchange of the ring in the Land .. impacted on his our world 'reality' .. and that a similar transference transpired between TC's and LA's unconscious bodies ..

as for those things Kaos raises .. there is no inconsistency addressed .. TC may have his clothing torn asunder in the Land but when he returned he will assume the physical state he last left .. er go .. clothed.

and no TC nor LA ever just vanish ..

if you want to raise a stumbling block .. Hile Troys transferrance is an interesting one ..

but in his case .. although he does disappear entirely from 'our' world .. Atiaran takes his place .. like they switch realities ..

both realities being as real as the other .. but maybe being slightly distinct from each other ..

Post by **Furls Fire** » Thu Sep 11, 2003 5:20 pm

WOW

...ummm...what Sky said!!!

Post by **Fist and Faith** » Thu Sep 11, 2003 6:01 pm

I very strongly suspect that if we asked SRD about the ring, whether it remained on Covenant's unconscious body when he was summoned, and if so, how it got into Linden's hand, he would say something like, "Um, well, uh, ... Yes! Is there another question in the back?"

As for Hile Troy, when I thought the Land was a dream, I never considered him evidence otherwise. Just another part of the dream. Part of himself knew that he should LOVE the Land, and be grateful to it for healing him, and Troy was that part of himself making its voice heard.

Post by **jehannum_2000** » Fri Sep 12, 2003 2:25 am

Fist and Faith wrote: Or did it just disappear from Covenant's hand and appear on Linden's, like a transporter on Star Trek?

And did it make that 'boyoyoyong' sound that disappearing/reappearing things made in Star Trek?

Pete.

Post by **Ryzel** » Fri Sep 12, 2003 3:09 am

Linden just took it when she was "off-camera" so to speak, or maybe she grabbed it when she was "unconscious" like a reflex.

Post by **Skyweir** » Fri Sep 12, 2003 4:58 am

Fist and Faith wrote:I very strongly suspect that if we asked SRD about the ring, whether it remained on Covenant's unconscious body when he was summoned, and if so, how it got into Linden's hand, he would say something like, "Um, well, uh, ... Yes! Is there another question in the back?"

perhaps .. but I trust that this author has a better handle of his works .. and he has a real respect for his story and its characters .. according to his own words .. I think that SRD knows full well whether he wants or intends the Land to be real or not .. and leaving it a dream .. is far more illogical imo .. now that TC is dead in our world ..

F&F wrote:As for Hile Troy, when I thought the Land was a dream, I never considered him evidence otherwise. Just another part of the dream. Part of himself knew that he should LOVE the Land, and be grateful to it for healing him, and Troy was that part of himself making its voice heard.

then who's dream is HT apart of?? clearly TC's seeing we only have TC's internal narrative to go by

so if he is an invention of TC's subconscious mind .. which indeed he could be .. LA then isnt really a doctor or colleague of Berensford either .. maybe she also is an invention of TC's love deprived mind .. what of Joan .. is she really in his custody?? is it all a complex invention of events?? cos it would all have to be if .. it were nothing more than a dream ..

and imo .. that is far harder to substantiate than the Lands reality

#2 cents #

Post by **Believer** » Fri Sep 12, 2003 5:33 am

Well, you could posit the Creator as a malicious, very good hypnotist. He was able to get Covenant to have this delusion of the Land, and LA also.

I doubt you could get too far with that idea.

Yeah... Having two people in the Land is hard to get around, unless you start going with a meta-delusion (one is the dream of another, and since TC is dead, presumably LA dreamed him up, as well as the Land, and we'd have one majorly screwed up person) or hypnosis, or some such notion.

Kevin's Watch

Kevin's Watch

OK, so the Land's real. So how....

OK, so the Land's real. So how....

Re: OK, so the Land's real. So how....