What's A Vain?

[Attest]

Wait. Wait.

Did...no...

Dis Attest and Worm just agree on something???

It happens.

[Reisheiruhime]

I dunno if this counts as a spoiler or not, so I'm going to hide it anyway.

Spoiler

Since the Harrow put all that time into learning about the entire line (the Viles begat the Demondim that begat the Waynhim and the ur-viles that begat Vain the demondim-spawn) I have a little trouble seeing the faery Elohim being able to unmake Vain at any time. Perhaps there's a power differential between Elohim and Insequent that I haven't seen yet.

But I can't see one of the lofty Elohim devoting himself or herself to the learning of the lore required to unmake Vain. Granted, the waters of the river caused him pain (was the water corrosive? I can't recall if it was or not...) but the sunlight seemed to anneal any damage done. (Can sunlight be considered Earthpowerful? The Sunbane wasn't physically related to the Sun - it was in the atmosphere and reacted with the Sun's light. Do celestial bodies lie within the Arch? The moon was certainly affected by Lord Foul's machinations in the 1st chrons.)

That Vain is a "structure" seems true. And he'd have to be a fairly specialized structure in order to react with the Elohim's substance in the presence of wild magic. But he had lore, too. In TWL, at TC's use of Vain's command, Vain demonstrated some strange power to crush the hearts (and perhaps other vital organs?) of the Illearth-fragment-affected villagers persuing and attempting to kill TC. He didn't touch them. That sounds like lore to me.

The Clave burned Vain with rukh-fire. He bled, and his wounds had to heal (they were re-opened when he scaled the side of Revelstone with the tree). If Vain didn't defend himself against a Sandgorgon, he would be crushed, as Hergrom was crushed. But that would be a debilitating injury - whereas the burn from the Clave was not. I believe his level of activity and responsiveness relied on his perception of danger to his being. Painful and possibly corrosive Elohim water? Swim like hell and then sunbathe. Bunch of fanatics waving rather hot sticks? Ow, but not too bad. Disgruntled Elohim attempting to sling me into a lake of magma? Hang on for dear sweet life and purpose. Vain wasn't nearly the comatose darling we'd like to believe... "Lalalala, ooh, wild magic, smile really pretty... Lalalala, ooh, carry Linden to safety over gravelling that doesn't burn me, whee..." (Yet more indestructibility there. Or perhaps the absence of voluntary destructibility...)

Or maybe I'm putting too much conjecture into this.

[thewormoftheworld'send]

The hard part to understand about Vain is that he is not a being of "structure," he is structure incarnate. He is structure, structure incarnate. Anything can be a being of structure, since everything has structure. But if you were to filter out from Being itself everything that gives it being except for its structure, and then give it form, that will give Vain.

Of course the ur-viles will create such a being in their own image, that is, as an image reflecting their own ideal of ur-vile perfection. Just as a human with such lore will create a perfect human.

Existing on a level above the average plane of reality, Vain requires no more lore than do the Elohim who are on a similar plane. They affect Earthpower and reality directly, without the mediation of lore necessary to mortal beings such as the Insequent. The Insequent can only hope to acquire such perfect mastery, but they are limited by their form. And this is perhaps the source of their envy/hatred toward the Elohim. With wild magic, given up freely of course, the Insequent would be as Kasreyn once desired - they would acquire the ability to use their lore to create perfect works, and thus their mastery will be on the same playing field as the Elohim, even if not on the same plane of reality.

Vain of course is affected by magic. And sandgorgons are not creature of magic, so they are compelled rather easily by magic as Kasreyn found.

[jacob Raver, sinTempter]

Or maybe I'm putting too much conjecture into this.

No such thing, though there are dumb questions! :p

But if you were to filter out from Being itself everything that gives it being except for its structure, and then give it form, that will give Vain.

He wouldn't be able to make decisions if he were only pure structure. While it's a nice idea, I think it's a case of "writer's sequelitis". But don't get me wrong, to me Vain is one of my alltime favorite concepts/characters in fanta-fi.

[thewormoftheworld'send]

Or maybe I'm putting too much conjecture into this.

No such thing, though there are dumb questions! :p

But if you were to filter out from Being itself everything that gives it being except for its structure, and then give it form, that will give Vain.

He wouldn't be able to make decisions if he were only pure structure. While it's a nice idea, I think it's a case of "writer's sequelitis". But don't get me wrong, to me Vain is one of my alltime favorite concepts/characters in fanta-fi.

Vain is an avatar or reification of pure Structure, but I never said he was "only" pure structure. Magic and lore gives it shape and form. Furthermore, Vain makes no decisions of his own, he is a programmed computer or extremely complex machine. And you can see from his behavior that his programming consists of very simple "if-then" statements. That is far and away from saying that Vain is "only" pure structure. So you're right, pure structure couldn't get the ur-viles very far unless they gave him or it some rudimentary programming to make decisions for him.

[Attest]

I dunno if this counts as a spoiler or not, so I'm going to hide it anyway.

Spoiler

Since the Harrow put all that time into learning about the entire line (the Viles begat the Demondim that begat the Waynhim and the ur-viles that begat Vain the demondim-spawn) I have a little trouble seeing the faery Elohim being able to unmake Vain at any time. Perhaps there's a power differential between Elohim and Insequent that I haven't seen yet.

But I can't see one of the lofty Elohim devoting himself or herself to the learning of the lore required to unmake Vain. Granted, the waters of the river caused him pain (was the water corrosive? I can't recall if it was or not...) but the sunlight seemed to anneal any damage done. (Can sunlight be considered Earthpowerful? The Sunbane wasn't physically related to the Sun - it was in the atmosphere and reacted with the Sun's light. Do celestial bodies lie within the Arch? The moon was certainly affected by Lord Foul's machinations in the 1st chrons.)

That Vain is a "structure" seems true. And he'd have to be a fairly specialized structure in order to react with the Elohim's substance in the presence of wild magic. But he had lore, too. In TWL, at TC's use of Vain's command, Vain demonstrated some strange power to crush the hearts (and perhaps other vital organs?) of the Illearth-fragment-affected villagers persuing and attempting to kill TC. He didn't touch them. That sounds like lore to me.

The Clave burned Vain with rukh-fire. He bled, and his wounds had to heal (they were re-opened when he scaled the side of Revelstone with the tree). If Vain didn't defend himself against a Sandgorgon, he would be crushed, as Hergrom was crushed. But that would be a debilitating injury - whereas the burn from the Clave was not. I believe his level of activity and responsiveness relied on his perception of danger to his being. Painful and possibly corrosive Elohim water? Swim like hell and then sunbathe. Bunch of fanatics waving rather hot sticks? Ow, but not too bad. Disgruntled Elohim attempting to sling me into a lake of magma? Hang on for dear sweet life and purpose. Vain wasn't nearly the comatose darling we'd like to believe... "Lalalala, ooh, wild magic, smile really pretty... Lalalala, ooh, carry Linden to safety over gravelling that doesn't burn me, whee..." (Yet more indestructibility there. Or perhaps the absence of voluntary destructibility...)

Or maybe I'm putting too much conjecture into this.

Some points that require considering, to date, all attacks on Vain that have been successful have been Lore-Based. Sangorgons have no Lore.

Insequent have to work for their knowledge, Elohim are just naturally gifted with power and ability, thus they wouldn't need to study to know how to unmake him.

[thewormoftheworld'send]

I was hoping that someone would come up with a certain point about Vain being pure structure that would be more difficult to answer. Oh well.

[Attest]

I was hoping that someone would come up with a certain point about Vain being pure structure that would be more difficult to answer. Oh well.

It's a matter I'd prefer to delve into in as little detail as possible, simply because the answers are mostly speculative. The whole "Structure Incarnate" side of things and the associate Lore.

I do wonder at times the depth of Vain's Lore though, had he wanted to, of course under the hypothetical, could he lead an ur-Vile wedge?

[thewormoftheworld'send]

Vain did not need to speak any words in order to crush living hearts inside people's chests by telekinesis. That power is not lore, which would require the mediation of invocations or tools. How can I explain this? Vain is the tool, the magic and the means of invoking it are himself. The difference is, he is a tool that requires no wielder, he "wields" himself, or better, he is wielded through his ur-vile pre-programming. Vain is a tool or weapon of magic shaped and programmed for a particular purpose, and nothing more. He needs no lore because lore is built into his very being. He exists on a higher plane of reality. Only beings on a normal plane of reality, such as your average Demondim-spawn, require lore.

Whether he is a tool or a weapon of magic depends on your viewpoint. The Ur-viles saw him as their tool, the Elohim saw him as a weapon aimed directly at themselves.