who does SHMNBM represent or reflect?

[timetraveler8]

Oops about Shiva - was I thinking of another Hindu goddess (Kali? Tali?)

Ha, you guys have ruined my evening by stirring up a maelstrom of thoughts that will prevent sleep.

[rdhopeca]

The Worm??

Now *there's* an interesting notion. You might very well be right, lurch.

Yikes..the implications of that " notion"...After the authors little game of intrigue with the TC and Jerry of FR..I look for clues in obvious places only hidden by the Illusion of pretense by the reader or..what we believe the author is saying,,without considering all the other possibilities. What was that the Wayhim said about their perspective? Start with every possible conceivable possibility then slowly narrow down the choices as events and circumstances bare their fruit...?

So, the question is, or is becoming,,How much does Linden Love Life? or..egads...which Life..real or Land..does she Love More? Of course, the choice is impossible. She must Kill the " Or".


uuuhmm..one other thought..." Purpose" Is Linden with out purpose here? Jerry is free and in the Land anyway..no longer autistic. Soooooo...Lindens Purpose has been fulfilled...What Purpose does she have? To get back to Reality? uuummm some problems there...How much does she want to Live?..and The Worm has begun to eat the stars...

To date, Jeremiah has been indifferent, but then so has the Worm...and to some degree, the Elohim...

[aliantha]

Even if she is slightly "lesser" than Creator/Foul in some way, I'll say she doesn't arise from Creation, but is a necessary property of it.

Right. Exactly.

lurch, you're right -- Linden has basically done everything she claimed she was in the Land to do. She has rescued Jeremiah and freed him from the croyel. That's it, she's done. That's all she claims to have come for. She's expecting Covenant to handle the hard stuff from here on out. But he keeps dumping it back in her lap: "You're the only one who can do this."

[Vraith]

I'll have to think on the Worm as "indifference."
It's certainly true it doesn't care about the world/peoples...but I wonder if that's enough? Indifference, it seems to me, requires a certain degree of intelligence/sentience/self-awareness...
I mean...a person who was indifferent to slaughter is one thing.
But if a lizard, or an enormous mutant gerbil don't care about slaughter...is that really "indifference?"
As far as we know, the Worm eats when it's hungry and sleeps when it's full, no indication it is able to ponder the wonders of Creation.

[DrPaul]

Let's remember that SRD has mined Judaic religious language, symbols and names extensively thoughout the Chronicles. Think of the elohim, the names of the Ravers, Jeremiah, for starters.

Now, in Judaism, the Deity must not be named. In Kabbalah the Deity, who must not be named, has a feminine dimension.

Am I on to something with this line of reasoning?

[Hiro]

Let's remember that SRD has mined Judaic religious language, symbols and names extensively thoughout the Chronicles. Think of the elohim, the names of the Ravers, Jeremiah, for starters.

Now, in Judaism, the Deity must not be named. In Kabbalah the Deity, who must not be named, has a feminine dimension.

Am I on to something with this line of reasoning?

Since SRD mainly picks names based on their sound, I don't know.

That is certainly ironic in the case of 'She...'

[rdhopeca]

What if Longwrath is intended to kill SWMNBM?

[aliantha]

What if Longwrath is intended to kill SWMNBM?

I love the idea. But what would the Elohim get out of it? They're the ones who put the geas on him.

[rdhopeca]

Another possibility is that SHE is that other lady that died at the scene that we are not sure was summoned or not...Sandy? Cindy?

But IMO SHE's Linden's reflection...

[DrPaul]

OK, having read this entire thread, and having just completed the first half of AATE, my own take at this point is quite close to Vraith's. In fact I don't think I disagree with anything Vraith has written so far.

I think we will learn (and in part already have by the end of Part 1) that SWMNBN is, in origin either the Creator's spouse or his daughter, a being of similar stature to the Despiser, and embodying a principle (Love) which is fundamental to the universe.

The events which included the seduction and betrayal of SWMNBN, the subsequent imprisonment of herself and the Despiser within the Arch of Time, and their subsequent succumbing to destructive insanity and despair respectively, constitute the primal tragedy of the creation. Until this tragedy is made good, nothing - not even the most fundamental defeat of Lord Foul within the creation by heroes such as Berek and Covenant - can put right something fundamentally wrong, including Love turned to madness and the eternal suffering of betrayed women. Further, it may well be that the destruction of the Earth and of the Arch of Time are necessary conditions for this most fundamental of tragedies to be redressed.

Now - and this is very important - on p.42 Berek says of Kevin's passion which led him to the Desecration "Doubtless such passion may cause immeasurable pain. But it has not released the Despiser. It cannot. Mistaken though it may be, no act of love or horror - or indeed of self-repudiation - is potent to grant the Despiser his desires. He may be freed only by one who is compelled by rage, and contemptuous of consequence." - [emphasis mine].

Who other than SWMNBN can the last sentence most aptly refer to?

Remember also that in FR Lord Foul assured Linden that forces had been set in motion which would destroy the Arch of Time and set him free. As others have commented on other threads, these kinds of predictions by Foul have a habit of coming true, yet despite this he is able to be defeated at a more fundamental level.

He then goes on to tell Linden "There is more. But of my deeper purposes I say nothing." I have already written on another thread that I think the realisation, or non-realisation, of Lord Foul's "deeper purposes" will be central to the climax of the Last Chronicles. The primal tragedy of the creation will either be made absolute and eternal, or will be fundamentally redressed.

As to the likely roles of Covenant, Linden and Jeremiah (not to mention Joan and Roger) in all of this, I don't have any settled ideas at this stage.

[ssherman12]

He may be freed only by one who is compelled by rage, and contemptuous of consequence." - [emphasis mine].

----

I'm glad you brought this up. Interestingly enough, doesn't this mean the Worm is not a candidate to free the Despiser? The Worm is certainly not "compelled by rage" - the Worm is a force of nature, essentially (at least as I see it). It's kind of a like the giant "Bouncer" if the world is the "Bar". When the lights go on (worm is roused), the "Bouncer" kicks everybody out (worm ends the world).

To that end, I fail to understand the consequence of drinking the Earthblood for the Worm. The Worm is supposed to pummel the world, but is it supposed to destroy the arch? If pummelling the world includes consuming something that will result in the destruction the arch, hasn't someone goofed (Creator, you're a dummy).

Of course, this assumes Berek knows what he is talking about. I suppose to this point in the series, the dead have been awful accurate however, and I have to presume he's on target.

First time writer - its been fun reading all your thoughts.

[Vraith]

He may be freed only by one who is compelled by rage, and contemptuous of consequence." - [emphasis mine].

----

I'm glad you brought this up. Interestingly enough, doesn't this mean the Worm is not a candidate to free the Despiser? The Worm is certainly not "compelled by rage" - the Worm is a force of nature, essentially (at least as I see it). It's kind of a like the giant "Bouncer" if the world is the "Bar". When the lights go on (worm is roused), the "Bouncer" kicks everybody out (worm ends the world).

To that end, I fail to understand the consequence of drinking the Earthblood for the Worm. The Worm is supposed to pummel the world, but is it supposed to destroy the arch? If pummelling the world includes consuming something that will result in the destruction the arch, hasn't someone goofed (Creator, you're a dummy).

Of course, this assumes Berek knows what he is talking about. I suppose to this point in the series, the dead have been awful accurate however, and I have to presume he's on target.

First time writer - its been fun reading all your thoughts.

It's an important point...and for what it is worth, I don't believe the destruction of the world helps LF, because the Arch won't necessarily go with it. The threat to the Arch arises not from the Worm, but from the excesses of power needed to stop the Worm/world's destruction. [one kind of threat anyway...opposing the Worm is only one option for inciting the use of power.]
Thing is, there are a number of powers that have, at times, shown themselves susceptible to "rage and contemptuous of consequences."

[thewormoftheworld'send]

He may be freed only by one who is compelled by rage, and contemptuous of consequence." - [emphasis mine].

----

I'm glad you brought this up. Interestingly enough, doesn't this mean the Worm is not a candidate to free the Despiser? The Worm is certainly not "compelled by rage" - the Worm is a force of nature, essentially (at least as I see it). It's kind of a like the giant "Bouncer" if the world is the "Bar". When the lights go on (worm is roused), the "Bouncer" kicks everybody out (worm ends the world).

To that end, I fail to understand the consequence of drinking the Earthblood for the Worm. The Worm is supposed to pummel the world, but is it supposed to destroy the arch? If pummelling the world includes consuming something that will result in the destruction the arch, hasn't someone goofed (Creator, you're a dummy).

Of course, this assumes Berek knows what he is talking about. I suppose to this point in the series, the dead have been awful accurate however, and I have to presume he's on target.

First time writer - its been fun reading all your thoughts.

It's an important point...and for what it is worth, I don't believe the destruction of the world helps LF, because the Arch won't necessarily go with it. The threat to the Arch arises not from the Worm, but from the excesses of power needed to stop the Worm/world's destruction. [one kind of threat anyway...opposing the Worm is only one option for inciting the use of power.]
Thing is, there are a number of powers that have, at times, shown themselves susceptible to "rage and contemptuous of consequences."

I don't think so. AATE states that the Worm will drink the EarthBlood and grow so powerful the Arch will come down.

If it is not forbidden, it will have Earthpower. The very blood of life from the most potent and private recesses of the Earth’s heart. Like the tolling of the world’s last heartbeats, Anele had pronounced its doom. When the Worm of the World’s End drinks the Blood of the Earth, its puissance will consume the Arch of Time.

[thewormoftheworld'send]

Now - and this is very important - on p.42 Berek says of Kevin's passion which led him to the Desecration "Doubtless such passion may cause immeasurable pain. But it has not released the Despiser. It cannot. Mistaken though it may be, no act of love or horror - or indeed of self-repudiation - is potent to grant the Despiser his desires. He may be freed only by one who is compelled by rage, and contemptuous of consequence." - [emphasis mine].

Who other than SWMNBN can the last sentence most aptly refer to?

I don't know, but Linden seems to think she is the one contemptuous of consequence. And she also happens to be the waker of the Worm.

[Vraith]

I don't think so. AATE states that the Worm will drink the EarthBlood and grow so powerful the Arch will come down.

If it is not forbidden, it will have Earthpower. The very blood of life from the most potent and private recesses of the Earth’s heart. Like the tolling of the world’s last heartbeats, Anele had pronounced its doom. When the Worm of the World’s End drinks the Blood of the Earth, its puissance will consume the Arch of Time.

Yea...I know...and my only thought, more of a place-holder than a conclusion, was that there might be a difference between "consuming" the Arch and breaking it...but confidence is low on that...

[thewormoftheworld'send]

I don't think so. AATE states that the Worm will drink the EarthBlood and grow so powerful the Arch will come down.

If it is not forbidden, it will have Earthpower. The very blood of life from the most potent and private recesses of the Earth’s heart. Like the tolling of the world’s last heartbeats, Anele had pronounced its doom. When the Worm of the World’s End drinks the Blood of the Earth, its puissance will consume the Arch of Time.

Yea...I know...and my only thought, more of a place-holder than a conclusion, was that there might be a difference between "consuming" the Arch and breaking it...but confidence is low on that...

I never had focused on the word "consuming," I had assumed that's what the Worm does in a manner of speaking. It wouldn't matter if the Arch were flattened, or charbroiled, and anyway, it's not literally a physical arch.

[amanibhavam]

Yes but now that Jeremiah has finally built his construct to trap the Elohim will not the same construct spare the Elohim from being consumed by the Worm - thus even if the Worm gets to the EarthBlood the Elohim can refill the world with EP afterwards? Sort of like Findail did with the Staff only on a mega scale?

[thewormoftheworld'send]

Yes but now that Jeremiah has finally built his construct to trap the Elohim will not the same construct spare the Elohim from being consumed by the Worm - thus even if the Worm gets to the EarthBlood the Elohim can refill the world with EP afterwards? Sort of like Findail did with the Staff only on a mega scale?

The Worm will be Forbidden from attaining the EarthBlood "by the truths of stone and wood, of orcrest and refusal." These are more truly the "last hope of the Land" than Anele.

[Zarathustra]

I haven't read the entire thread--I'm just now getting around to all the threads I avoided until finishing the book. Forgive me if this is redundant.

Obviously, SWMN is connected to or symbolizing Joan. Here's how I think of it: if Lord Foul is TC's own inner Despiser, then SWMN is Joan's inner Betrayed Wife Bane. In fact, she is Lord Foul's Bane. She is the force that awoke Tom's inner Despiser. She left him because she felt betrayed by his leprosy. Her shining marriage to the Creator (happy, writing Tom) became a dark betrayal, in her mind. So she took Roger and fled into an abyss of pain, revulsion, and guilt. And this "Bane" is what turned TC into the man who needed to go to the Land to resolve all this. All this time, he's been fighting his own inner Despiser, but that wouldn't have been necessary in the first place if his wife hadn't awoken that part in him. Lord's Foul's Bane was never TC. Joan is the Bane.

[High Lord Tolkien]

I haven't read the entire thread--I'm just now getting around to all the threads I avoided until finishing the book. Forgive me if this is redundant.

Obviously, SWMN is connected to or symbolizing Joan. Here's how I think of it: if Lord Foul is TC's own inner Despiser, then SWMN is Joan's inner Betrayed Wife Bane. In fact, she is Lord Foul's Bane. She is the force that awoke Tom's inner Despiser. She left him because she felt betrayed by his leprosy. Her shining marriage to the Creator (happy, writing Tom) became a dark betrayal, in her mind. So she took Roger and fled into an abyss of pain, revulsion, and guilt. And this "Bane" is what turned TC into the man who needed to go to the Land to resolve all this. All this time, he's been fighting his own inner Despiser, but that wouldn't have been necessary in the first place if his wife hadn't awoken that part in him. Lord's Foul's Bane was never TC. Joan is the Bane.

Damn! That's good!