who does SHMNBM represent or reflect?

[rdhopeca]

If Lord Foul is the "other side" of Covenant, who is What's Her Name the other side of? Does she even have to be given her nature as an immortal?

[aliantha]

I want to know what her true name is. And why we must not say it.

Do you suppose she was originally an Insequent?

[Madadeva]

Joan was the first "betrayed" - by Covenant's Leprosy.

[Vraith]

Yea, of the real world people, Joan.
Not an Insequent, don't think:
She's another Immortal, along with Creator and LF. [from before the world/arch].
She was the Creator's lover [like Joan to TC].
Lord Foul seduced both of them with lies.
[Literally seduced SHE, it seems to me].
LF used them both and got them both trapped.
And used/encouraged their insanity.

Her hate is pretty scary...but it'll be interesting to see where it goes: Is there anyone more powerful than her, or anyone who could possibly hate LF more?
[though in her state, like Joan hates TC, she probably also hates the Creator].

[aliantha]

Right, right, but then there's this bit from the Ardent (p. 98) about the Auriference:

"In a distant age," he explained to Linden, "a time that far preceded that of the Theomach, she delved deeply, seeking a knowledge both ancient and immeasurable. Desiring as did the Theomach to be named the greatest of the Insequent, she found only the loss of use and mind and life. Yet her end was by no act of the Insequent. Rather she was unmade by evils too vicious to be contemplated.

Couldn't that be stretched to encompass the description of a-Jeroth's treatment of Diassomer Mininderain?

[Ur Dead]

SWMNBN:

Idea:

Sounds like it was going to be Mother Nature when the world was first being created but was corrupted by Foul's hand and became a Bane of the World.(Of course I havn't read the entire book yet)

Maybe she is the Mother of the Lurker.

And why is it that the Bane is referred as "She" ?



/ sidenote mode.

Called her Mommy Dearest..

/

And if "Mom" is so bad, why wasn't "she" wasn't awaken when Linden rouse TC back to life? I presume that much power to arouse the Worm would have also awaken any lesser creatures or powers within the world.

[dlbpharmd]

Maybe she is the Mother of the Lurker.

She could be the mother of the Ravers, also (making them little Voldemorts. )

Vraith, your explanation sounds right to me.

[rdhopeca]

Perhaps the Auriference was the first to be consumed by What's Her Name.

Of course it's only speculation, but considering what happened to Joan at the end of AATE, and considering that most likely Covenant and LF might "merge" through some sort of acceptance, that perhaps WHat's Her Name and Linden might also merge? That this represents Linden's black moods?

[Vraith]

Right, right, but then there's this bit from the Ardent (p. 98) about the Auriference:

"In a distant age," he explained to Linden, "a time that far preceded that of the Theomach, she delved deeply, seeking a knowledge both ancient and immeasurable. Desiring as did the Theomach to be named the greatest of the Insequent, she found only the loss of use and mind and life. Yet her end was by no act of the Insequent. Rather she was unmade by evils too vicious to be contemplated.

Couldn't that be stretched to encompass the description of a-Jeroth's treatment of Diassomer Mininderain?

It could. But it's an after thing, I think: the Auri was seduced [by her desire for knowledge/greatness, or by Foul directly or indirectly, or both], but SHE was already there and crazy, and ate her up.
AND Ur Dead: I don't think she's a lesser power than the Worm, I think she's greater. I might be pulling this out of my behind, too little fact, too much speculation, but I see it like this:
3 Immortals [Creator, LF, SHE]. World is made. LF has hidden banes, but also seduces SHE, come down, love me. Arch seals BOTH of them in. [roughly]. Waking the Worm doesn't wake her, cuz the world is irrelevant to her...except when something tasty gets close enough to eat.

[Romeo]

I, too, think that She is an Immortal on the same level as Foul and the Creator. I don't know if She started like that, but when Minnie was screwed over by Foul, I think she was then consumed by She - and She then took on the stature of a god, and the whole spurned woman thing (which grew strong with each similar meal).

[Ur Dead]

Well Vraith, I have got to disagee.

Most of the past creations lore never mentioned or hinted at a third entity involved with the worlds creation.

"SHE" may be Diassomer Mininderain or a fragment of the act of Fouls doing or even a designed " Corrupted Mother Nature".
A force contained deep within the Earth, absorbing the influx of the fragmentated "One Forest" Awashed with particles of Earthpower as it flowed thru Gravin Threndor. Munching the occastional traveller passing within her grasps. Ever so slowly, increasing in power.
It may have took hundreds or thousand of centries for She to be as powerful as depicted. Now to a point where SHE is as powerful or nearly as powerful as the imprisoned Foul. She may be at the point where SHE has assended to the point of Immortality. Not really enough history has been revealed to make a final decision.

But a being so powerful (as comparing Her to the Illearth Stone, The Stone was a pond, she is a sea) Would SHE be a beacon of food for the worm? Or is she the wrong type of Food? I have to preclude that SHE absored alot of Earthpower in her slumber.

Another reason I think she not an pre-immortal is that she is under a constant slumber, waking occationally. Foul was reduced a number of times(3 that we know of) but always came back to full strength and full freedom within his prison. SHE hasn't had that ability or no knowledge has indictaed she was unleashed.


I believe it was stated in the first chronicles that there were Banes, deeper in the Earth, far greater than the Illearth Stone. SHE may be one of those banes. And the Banes were placed during the time of creation.

My take..

[Orlion]

I'm not entirely sure... but I got a couple conflicting ideas that involve Foul

I) Could be that when Foul was messing around with Creation, he brought Her there thinking that if She was there, the Creator would not seal the creation with the Arch.

II) Could be that Foul and She really cared for each other, but when they were trapped by the Arch, she felt betrayed, reviled, etc. and kinda broke it off with Foul. As a result, Foul grew to despise Creation and wanting to destroy it, because it was Creation that reft him of his love. Could explain further his hatred of the Creator. She is the female embodiment of love spurned, maybe Foul is the male equivalent of love spurned.

[Dagonet]

Well Vraith, I have got to disagee.

But a being so powerful (as comparing Her to the Illearth Stone, The Stone was a pond, she is a sea) Would SHE be a beacon of food for the worm? Or is she the wrong type of Food? I have to preclude that SHE absored alot of Earthpower in her slumber.

What if the Worm is female?

[Vraith]

I rarely do direct quotes, and I'm pretty persuadable on interpretation, but I'm almost 100% sure I'm correct here.

She was the reason that men and women had discovered love; the cause of every whole and holy desire
......
During the creation of the earth, She had been cast down. By the sealing of the Arch of Time She had been imprisoned.

emphasis mine.

In context there's some wiggle room whether she was a being, or just some quality or force or potentiality. But it's clear [in context] she was NOT a bane to begin [heh...so she need not remain one...very important methinks], and the break up wasn't mutual...she was abused, and betrayed, and discarded, and victim of absolute treachery.
And yes, Ur Dead, I think she is "the wrong kind of food" for the Worm. She isn't Earthpower.

[dlbpharmd]

Here's the Clave song rendered by Sunder, TWL chapter 8. There are important clues to Diassomer here:

"'Oh, come, my love, and bed with me;
Your mate knows neither lust nor heart -
Forget him in this ecstasy.
I joy to play the treacher's part.'
Acute with blandishments and spells
Spoke a-Jeroth of the Seven Hells.

Diassomer Mininderain,
The mate of might, and Master's wife,
All stars' and heavens' chatelaine,
With power over realm and strife,
Attended well, the story tells,
To a-Jeroth of the Seven Hells.

With a-Jeroth the lady ran;
Diassomer with fear and dread
Fled from the Master's ruling span.
On Earth she hides her trembling head,
While all about her laughter wells
From a-Jeroth of the Seven Hells.

Wrath is the Master - fire and rage,
Retribution fills his hands.
Attacking comes he, sword and gage,
'Gainst treachery in all the lands.
Then crippled are the cunning spells
Of a-Jeroth of the Seven Hells.

Mininderain he treats with rue;
No heaven-home for broken trust,
But children given to pursue
All treachery to death and dust.
Thus Earth became a gallow-fells
For a-Jeroth of the Seven Hells.

Looking at this:
1) Diassomer is:
the "mate of might"
"Master's Wife"
"all stars' and heavens' chatelaine"
she has "power over realm and strife"

She seems to be the equal of the Creator, and of Lord Foul. She is married to the Creator (the Clave always referred to the Creator as The Master.)

2. She is seduced away from the Master by Lord Foul (a-Jeroth):
"Forget him in this ecstasy"
"acute with blandishments and spells"
"Attended well, the story tells, to a-Jeroth..."
"With a-Jeroth the lady ran"
"Fled from the Master..."

3. She soon realizes her mistake, and is betrayed by Foul:
"On Earth she hides her trembling head
While all about her laughter wells, from a-Jeroth...."

4. a-Jeroth is attacked by the Creator, and is defeated
"Then crippled are the cunning spells...."

5. DM faces the consequences:
"No heaven-home"
"All treachery to death and dust"

[aliantha]

"But children given to pursue/All treachery to death and dust." It's one sentence. Who are the children of the Creator? The Elohim? They hardly pursue treachery....

If we're reading this correctly, SHE would be the functional equivalent of a goddess. The Creatrix, as it were.

Y'all could be right about the Auriference. I'm on my second read-through (I confess already! Someone loaned me an ARC a couple of weeks ago) and the quote about the Auriference struck me. But I also seem to recall, somewhere late in the book, that Diassomer Mininderain is mentioned as one of SHE's victims.

[dlbpharmd]

But I also seem to recall, somewhere late in the book, that Diassomer Mininderain is mentioned as one of SHE's victims.

That is correct. Confusing, isn't it?

[aliantha]

Yeah, no kidding!

[rdhopeca]

She is (I just re-read that part) but maybe it's metaphoric...ie like Darth Vader killing Anakin Skywalker...

maybe...

[Ur Dead]

Read further..

Maybe it was a bad choice of a name..


Maybe it should be:

She Who Cannot Be Named.

or
She Who Is Many Names. (But who wants to name a bane - Swimn)

A real Femme Fatal that one is.