Kevin's Watch

Cambo wrote:

aliantha wrote:The Lovely Wife informed my kids at one point that young children are innocent, but when they turn six, evil springs up in them. Or something like that. I had a *very* interesting talk with the kids about it.

This woman sounds the mother in Carrie.

You are not far off the mark, Cambo. See my other post(s) about her in the depression thread.

JemCheeta wrote:I had an experience when I was 10 where I went to a movie night at a church across the street after being invited, where we watched a video about how the dinosaurs were fakes that god put in the ground to test our faith.

Oy. There are people who invest their trust in a deity whom they believe plays those kind of games with the faithful? What does that say about their G-d? About those who worship Him / Her?

The All may well test us. Still, to assume an attempt to intentionally fool the faithful in order to trip us into breaking faith because our divinely-endowed powers of reason lead us to question a piece of evidence planted to mislead us?

There is a diagnosis in DSM IV for that!!!

Savor Dam wrote:

JemCheeta wrote:I had an experience when I was 10 where I went to a movie night at a church across the street after being invited, where we watched a video about how the dinosaurs were fakes that god put in the ground to test our faith.

Oy. There are people who invest their trust in a deity whom they believe plays those kind of games with the faithful? What does that say about their G-d? About those who worship Him / Her?

The All may well test us. Still, to assume an attempt to intentionally fool the faithful in order to trip us into breaking faith because our divinely-endowed powers of reason lead us to question a piece of evidence planted to mislead us?

There is a diagnosis in DSM IV for that!!!

Bill Hicks wrote:"Dinosaur fossils? God put those here to test our faith!" I think God put you here to test my faith, dude....Is anyone else a little uncomfortable with the idea that God is fucking with our heads? Some prankster God, running around burying fossils: "Ho ho ho. We will see who believes in me now!"

Precisely, Cambo!

The All has far better things to do than to play head games with us.

A fundamentalist Christian friend of mine believes that there were dinosaurs on earth but they all died in the extreme climate changes after Noah's flood.

I fully intend to raise any children I might have as Catholics.

Fist, be careful when you tell your daughter that she can stop going to church whenever she wants--it's possible she could assume that indicates disapproval of going to church, rather than simply ensuring freedom to choose whether to go to church. It would be horrible if she found faith and hope at church, but stopped going becaues she thought it'd please her father.

I honestly have no idea which denominations hold to the docrine that the fossil record is a divine version of an April Fools prank.

I cannot tell from Auleliel's post whether the second paragraph is related to the first and/or the general topic of what dinosaur evidence may mean, but I certainly meant no offense to any specific faith. Just expressing my reaction to the reasoning related in JemCheeta's post about the film that said "dinosaurs were fakes that god put in the ground to test our faith."

Nope, my three paragraphs were entirely unrelated. Sorry if I confused you.
Pope John Paul II wrote something-or-other indicating that belief in evolution was not contradictory to belief in Catholicism. I personally believe that, whatever manner everything came to be the way it was, God was guiding the process.
I also think that it's ridiculous that God would create the world to be a trap for people who are weak in faith--there are enough real situations to give everybody ample testing of faith in their lifetimes without booby-trapping the planet as well. God is not malicious.

Savor Dam wrote:I honestly have no idea which denominations hold to the docrine that the fossil record is a divine version of an April Fools prank.

There are no denominations that think this about fossilized remains. There are a couple of ways to explain fossils within the context of creation but I am not going to digress into them at this time.

The really funny thing about fossils, though, is that they keep making us rethink what we know about the world. For instance, some fossil remains of a land-dwelling creature were recently discovered as part of underwater exploration by an oil company. The remains were found in a place where, according to the other established timelines that palentologists accept, would have been covered by ocean at the time layer from which the fossil was discovered. So...either a) the generally-accepted timeline is incorrect or b) somehow this one particular creature was swept out to the ocean, managed not to be eaten, and was eventually fossilzed, or c) some other scenario I can't imagine at this time. Anyway...if you hear some scientist claiming that we know something about the distant past is a fact then they are deluding both you and themselves. At best, they could say "the evidence suggests x" but we can't actually prove it.

Hashi Lebwohl wrote:

Savor Dam wrote:I honestly have no idea which denominations hold to the docrine that the fossil record is a divine version of an April Fools prank.

There are no denominations that think this about fossilized remains.

Good to know, Hashi...

Shall we assume that both the makers of the film JemCheeta saw and the church which held the event where he saw it were operating outside the teachings of any established creed?

Dread Poet Jethro would have wrote:If odd religions
And offbeat faiths should "bug" you
Do try the in sect

Savor Dam wrote:Shall we assume that both the makers of the film JemCheeta saw and the church which held the event where he saw it were operating outside the teachings of any established creed?

There are all kinds of fringe groups out there who believe a variety of strange things. Some of them will make you laugh; other will make you cringe and look over your shoulder.

Also it should be noted that while a denomination might not believe in a thing, members of the denomination might. This was a Baptist church, and they don't as a denomination believe in a tricksy fossil record, some people that go to the church might. I believe that the youth minister was a radical.

Hashi Lebwohl wrote:There are all kinds of fringe groups out there who believe a variety of strange things. Some of them will make you laugh; other will make you cringe and look over your shoulder.

I resemble that remark...

High Lord Tolkien wrote:Is there a nice normal Christian church that just teaches the lessons of Jesus but leaves all the crazy bigoted narrow minded arrogant stuff behind?

Lina Heartlistener wrote:...Really I (personally) think it just has to do with what flavor(s) of narrow-minded arrogance one can bear! If someone like Fist's daughter can clearly see the flaws of the church she ends up in, but ALSO finds some good common ground & virtues she admires in the people... then maybe someday she'll be able to confront some of those flaws and do good...

I disagree.
There's a certain psychology or mind control behind most churches.
Guilt/forgiveness/money/power.
His daughter is young too.
She'll be more susceptible.

My early training in Christianity really hammered on the point that: "If you have control, you don't have love." So _I_ think you've put your finger on it. I personally believe that this sort of forgiveness-for-power dynamic represents one category of the worst, most grievous (and dangerous) ways that God's name is profaned.

Someone I know would often say, "If there IS a God... then He would not be having THOSE people as His representatives." So I'll ask you: "If there IS a God, how would you expect Him to deal with this problem of being misrepresented?"

But I am gonna draw back from trying to PREDICT anything about "how things might go if Fist's daughter gets really involved in a church." (Because seriously, who am I and what on earth do I really know about this situation?!?) One of the major impacts of my first Christian community was turning me - a "nice" compliant people-pleaser - into a much more confrontational person. So I was probably basing things off my own experience. =P

High Lord Tolkien wrote:

Lina Heartlistener wrote:And what DO you do when the teachings of Jesus sound pretty... divisive?

Maybe I've never looked at it to closely then. Honestly, no sarcasm. I always thought it was about humility, forgiveness, peace and the occasional ass kicking when necessary...

Okay, that last sentence is a pretty amusing line...

Naww, I wasn't going to assume you were being sarcastic. If you're interested, I can search up some of the things that I think are his more "divisive" words, post two or three quotes, and see what you think...

Disclaimer: I haven't really read much on this thread after your post, HLT, so I might have said something someone already said.

Lina Heartlistener wrote: Okay, that last sentence is a pretty amusing line...

Naww, I wasn't going to assume you were being sarcastic. If you're interested, I can search up some of the things that I think are his more "divisive" words, post two or three quotes, and see what you think...

(Well he did get pretty pissed off during the moneychangers thing. I bet he kicked a few asses)

No, spare the the quotes, I probably know them. lol
Like I said, I think the general message is a good one.

Speaking of his message.......
www.youtube.com/watch?v=lLl1RWlgw7o

High Lord Tolkien wrote:(Well he did get pretty pissed off during the moneychangers thing. I bet he kicked a few asses)

Check.

High Lord Tolkien wrote:No, spare the the quotes, I probably know them. lol
Like I said, I think the general message is a good one.

LOL, maybe.. I've noticed that a number of folks around here have a rather large exposure to the Bible / may have had it shoved down their throat in the past. On occasion I've blundered by assuming people here would be relatively ignorant when that was not the case.

Clearly you're aware of the significant threads/themes in what Jesus said, from what you've said... and that it was what He DID that made His words He have so much weight. But I mean, who practices humility these days?

The quotes I was thinking of were the reamings Jesus gives various groups of ..well, religious leaders, mostly. On second thought, maybe religious leaders don't preach on those passages as much... Oh yes, and the part in the temple. With the whip. But also... some of the "scariest-sounding" stuff about hell is actually from things Jesus said, and I think a lot of people find that surprising.

The reason why I like to look up quotes is so I can use the context to see for myself if _I_ think the text, just for example, means "general manufacturers of dairy products" or really DOES mean just "cheesemakers." (for anyone lurking, see HLT's link for reference) And then there's "human error." Don't even get me started on that.

HLT wrote:Speaking of his message.......
www.youtube.com/watch?v=lLl1RWlgw7o

Alright, I like that explanation for mis-quoted scriptures, too.

Actually, most congregations I've been a part of actually "play nicer" - in public, anyways!

But I HAVE experienced that level of irony while listening to a sermon before. (And then I have to laugh or cry.)
"Oh, 'e said 'blessed are the MEEK' " in the middle of an ensuing fistfight - Ahahahaha!!!

Yeah well, he was going to return with the sword wasn't he?

--A

Lina Heartlistener wrote:

High Lord Tolkien wrote:Is there a nice normal Christian church that just teaches the lessons of Jesus but leaves all the crazy bigoted narrow minded arrogant stuff behind?

Lina Heartlistener wrote:...Really I (personally) think it just has to do with what flavor(s) of narrow-minded arrogance one can bear! If someone like Fist's daughter can clearly see the flaws of the church she ends up in, but ALSO finds some good common ground & virtues she admires in the people... then maybe someday she'll be able to confront some of those flaws and do good...

I disagree.
There's a certain psychology or mind control behind most churches.
Guilt/forgiveness/money/power.
His daughter is young too.
She'll be more susceptible.

My early training in Christianity really hammered on the point that: "If you have control, you don't have love." So _I_ think you've put your finger on it. I personally believe that this sort of forgiveness-for-power dynamic represents one category of the worst, most grievous (and dangerous) ways that God's name is profaned.

Someone I know would often say, "If there IS a God... then He would not be having THOSE people as His representatives." So I'll ask you: "If there IS a God, how would you expect Him to deal with this problem of being misrepresented?"

But I am gonna draw back from trying to PREDICT anything about "how things might go if Fist's daughter gets really involved in a church." (Because seriously, who am I and what on earth do I really know about this situation?!?) One of the major impacts of my first Christian community was turning me - a "nice" compliant people-pleaser - into a much more confrontational person. So I was probably basing things off my own experience. =P

High Lord Tolkien wrote:

Lina Heartlistener wrote:And what DO you do when the teachings of Jesus sound pretty... divisive?

Maybe I've never looked at it to closely then. Honestly, no sarcasm. I always thought it was about humility, forgiveness, peace and the occasional ass kicking when necessary...

Okay, that last sentence is a pretty amusing line...

Naww, I wasn't going to assume you were being sarcastic. If you're interested, I can search up some of the things that I think are his more "divisive" words, post two or three quotes, and see what you think...

Disclaimer: I haven't really read much on this thread after your post, HLT, so I might have said something someone already said.

Hi Lina!
I've had a bad week - 3 out of 4 kids seriously sick, the little one back to the ER, my younger boy cracked a foot bone and got a cast, older one got himself bronchitis (mainly by being a teen that wants to show his 'independence'... Any prayers much appreciated. My wife runs from kid to kid, taking temps, applying plasters, irrigating noses, administering medicines, etc.

It's still Lent so I'm still limiting my computer time and definitely don't want to debate (and have a lot less desire now, anyway).

I think what you say true - but where IS this Christian faith that controls minds and trades money for forgiveness? Where IS this bogey man? If you say 'televangelists', for example, I could conceivably agree - but if we talk about Churches that are truly organized, and have been so for centuries or millennia, then I really can't. I really liked something Fr Tom Hopko said:

Fr Tom Hopko wrote:Tell me about this God that you don't believe in - I probably don't believe in Him, either.

I think that even pseudo-Christian sects like Mormons are mostly and generally quite sincere, and even at the upper levels tend to believe what they preach and teach.

It is true that the one thing that pushes people away from Christian faith is the behavior of Christians themselves - we are (rightly) held to a higher standard, and fail that standard.

One song I grew up with ("Go Tell it on the Mountain") has a line that is SO anti-Orthodox ("When I was a sinner...") It's a jaw-dropper for us. What the heck do you mean, WAS a sinner??? Listening to Robinson and Gould again, they commented that Paul would've been around sixty, towards the end of his ministry, when he wrote that he was the chief of sinners (something we all say and try to grasp as actually true before we partake of the Eucharist - I have no trouble grasping it, and as CS Lewis said, people don't even have any sense of just how bad they really are until they have tried very very hard to be good).

I dunno. I'm IN the Orthodox Church, and I'm free to walk, I don't HAVE to obey a darn thing my priest suggests that I do. I'm quite sure that the Catholic Church, in general, is little different, although you can point to times in history when individuals DID abuse their positions. It really annoys me, being on the inside, when people (not really thinking of you, but in general) who are on the outside speak of mind control and power. It's a fear based on isolated exceptions, not on the rule - and even a person with a functioning brain can walk away from the televangelist.

I hope that doesn't come across as nasty or confrontational. I'd just like to encourage both circumspection and careful definition when people say that - it's an over-generalization par excellence. I apologize if any of that comes across in an offensive way. It's really just a defensive reaction from someone who knows of enormous pieces of organized Christianity where this is simply not true as a general rule; specifically the institutional Churches (Orthodox, Catholic and Anglican, for example, and others) Or see my own response to HLT's comment above.

10+ days to Pascha!!!

High Lord Tolkien wrote:

Lina Heartlistener wrote: Okay, that last sentence is a pretty amusing line...

Naww, I wasn't going to assume you were being sarcastic. If you're interested, I can search up some of the things that I think are his more "divisive" words, post two or three quotes, and see what you think...

(Well he did get pretty pissed off during the moneychangers thing. I bet he kicked a few asses)

No, spare the the quotes, I probably know them. lol
Like I said, I think the general message is a good one.

Speaking of his message.......
www.youtube.com/watch?v=lLl1RWlgw7o

I don't think people can really grasp the message or state what it was by merely reading, or even knowing quotes by heart.

For example, He was born into the one nation in the Middle East that had a very solid idea of their monotheistic God, and that He was completely OTHER, and not human at all, and then Christ begins identifying Himself with the prophetical references to the Son of God and the Son of Man in the ancient Hebrew Scriptures - most notably Isaiah - He says that HE IS that Creator that was there from the beginning before all ages; He identified Himself with the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. He DID say He came to bring a sword, not peace - and yet much of what He said TAUGHT peace. He spoke in paradoxes, many of which make no sense from an unbelieving standpoint and cannot possibly be identified with kind messages of world peace.

I think that Chesterton's "The Everlasting Man" is the best book that DOES make a strong case that Christ was unlike all other founders of world religions - that he really was unique in ways that the Buddha and Mohammed simply aren't. It shook the atheist CS Lewis's atheism, and ultimately contributed to his conversion a few years down the road (and he identified it at the end of his life as the book that had helped him the most).

www.cse.dmu.ac.uk/~mward/gkc/books/everlasting_man.html

That for me, would make a good discussion - the thesis of the introduction of that book - that the modern western thinker is too far from traditional/historic Christianity to understand it, and too near it to look at it impartially, as he would an Eastern religion.

rusmeister wrote:Hi Lina!
I've had a bad week - 3 out of 4 kids seriously sick, the little one back to the ER, my younger boy cracked a foot bone and got a cast, older one got himself bronchitis (mainly by being a teen that wants to show his 'independence'... Any prayers much appreciated.

Ick... that SOUNDS like a really hard week. Ahhh yeah, showing his "independence" ...uh-oh, sounds like there's a story there!

rusmeister wrote:My wife runs from kid to kid, taking temps, applying plasters, irrigating noses, administering medicines, etc.

WHOA. May I apply for charter membership in the "rusmeister's wife's fan club"? I have just two kids, and I got tired just reading that sentence.

rusmeister wrote:I think what you say true - but where IS this Christian faith that controls minds and trades money for forgiveness? Where IS this bogey man? If you say 'televangelists', for example, I could conceivably agree - but if we talk about Churches that are truly organized, and have been so for centuries or millennia, then I really can't.

I never brought up specific denominations. In fact, some of the branches of (what I consider to be) the Church Visible* which I favor have plenty specific instances of this. Abuse of power happens. A lot. Some of it happens behind closed doors, some of it is subtle, and some is just obvious when you hear a pastor or parent preaching out of crappy motives. Or when the amount of money people contribute to the church gets published in a folder that all congregation members can see.

My dad is almost 70, and grew up in Chicago "back in the day." I grew up hearing his stories of having vindictive teachers in the church, and seeing ordinary churchgoers have vindictive animosities along denominational lines. I believe him, partly cause it fits my model of humanity. I believe HLT is probably aware of some pretty bad things that really happened too.

Definitely I'll agree with you about some televangelists. I don't watch TV much, but from my minimal experience w/ that.. I think "potential idolatry alert"! I'll grant you that it sounds like that kind of pressure to "declare loyalty to a human preacher" (a la 1 Cor 1 www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1% ... ersion=ESV) IS quite probably something that Orthodoxy has some good safeguards against.

Fr Tom Hopko wrote:Tell me about this God that you don't believe in - I probably don't believe in Him, either.

NICE quote.

rusmeister wrote:It is true that the one thing that pushes people away from Christian faith is the behavior of Christians themselves - we are (rightly) held to a higher standard, and fail that standard.

One song I grew up with ("Go Tell it on the Mountain") has a line that is SO anti-Orthodox ("When I was a sinner...") It's a jaw-dropper for us. What the heck do you mean, WAS a sinner??? Listening to Robinson and Gould again, they commented that Paul would've been around sixty, towards the end of his ministry, when he wrote that he was the chief of sinners (something we all say and try to grasp as actually true before we partake of the Eucharist - I have no trouble grasping it, and as CS Lewis said, people don't even have any sense of just how bad they really are until they have tried very very hard to be good).

Amen... I have just been thinking about how this TOTALLY makes sense to me... that you get older... if you're pretty honest with yourself, you uncover more and more crap in your soul, find yourself more and more powerless to be good or want good at times.

Pfffttt... I'd just say they mean "unrepentant sinner"... but you got a point. In PRACTICE Christians sometimes think their struggle with sin is supposed over when they "get saved." Or they just want "fire insurance." There are song lyrics I don't like for scriptural reasons too... "little Lord Jesus no crying He makes"? Sounds a little like it's denying Jesus being fully human. Human babies cry.

rusmeister wrote:I dunno. I'm IN the Orthodox Church, and I'm free to walk, I don't HAVE to obey a darn thing my priest suggests that I do. I'm quite sure that the Catholic Church, in general, is little different, although you can point to times in history when individuals DID abuse their positions. It really annoys me, being on the inside, when people (not really thinking of you, but in general) who are on the outside speak of mind control and power.

Yeahhh.. I can understand that. And I totally agree that if somebody says that someone else is "controlling" them, in general, it's because that person GAVE UP some of his/her responsibility to make independent decisions. But some people are just more vulnerable than others.

Something Lord Foul said on some thread I read a WHILE ago was something like, "If belief is necessary to be in a community, and you have NOBODY, then you WILL believe." (gonna PM him to see if he remembers what he said)

Now, I personally think that purchases outward COMPLIANCE, not inward BELIEF, but sometimes the PERSON himself cant even discern the difference. And that's really tragic. (even deadly-dangerous)

rusmeister wrote:I hope that doesn't come across as nasty or confrontational. I'd just like to encourage both circumspection and careful definition when people say that - it's an over-generalization par excellence. I apologize if any of that comes across in an offensive way. It's really just a defensive reaction from someone who knows of enormous pieces of organized Christianity where this is simply not true as a general rule; specifically the institutional Churches (Orthodox, Catholic and Anglican, for example, and others) Or see my own response to HLT's comment above.

No, it doesn't come across as nasty. And, actually, I think confrontation can often be a good thing; I think lots of things that I say ought to be balanced.

* (Someone jab me in the ribs for a definition of "the church visible" vs "the church invisible," if any Watchers want a definition. Maybe I'll edit this post later to include one. For now - sorry, Christian jargon alert!)

Lina Heartlistener wrote:(Someone jab me in the ribs for a definition of "the church visible" vs "the church invisible," if any Watchers want a definition. Maybe I'll edit this post later to include one. For now - sorry, Christian jargon alert!)

*jab*jab*
I'm Catholic and I don't know what you mean by this.