Whither the Watch?

[Avatar]

This. A thousand times this. Too many subforum mean that there are tons of interesting threads most never see.

They'll never see them at the bottom of 10,000 threads brought in from disparate forums either.

--A

[rdhopeca]

I'm going to do my best to stay connected here. I am not sure if the forum count is to blame per se, there just needs to be something meaningful for us to do / talk about. Maybe open the writers circle to more people, or come up with other similar things. Hard to say for sure.

[I'm Murrin]

This. A thousand times this. Too many subforum mean that there are tons of interesting threads most never see.

They'll never see them at the bottom of 10,000 threads brought in from disparate forums either.

--A

They'll still be sorted by activity. And it's not like the forums most often suggested for merging (Art Forum, TC Movie forum, Doriendor Korishev, the Library forums) have been particularly active. If there's no or extremely diminished interest in discussion in any of those forums, they'd be better off buried with what very few active topics they have adding to the atmosphere of a more popular forum.

Most of the Library forums have had only a few scattered posts since last year. If someone wants to talk about a new book by one of those authors, which seems to be the only time they pop in for those rare posts, they could always post a thread in Gen SF/F, where it's more likely to be noticed.


Edit: One other thing, and I see no reason why there would be any reason to question this one - move the Last Chronicles dissection forum into a subforum of Dissecting The Land, like the rest of them.

[Frostheart Grueburn]

Wow.

Burying the already hard-to-find art behind ten pages of generic discussion isn't going to attract any new artsy folks aboard, the lack of whom the forum already suffers. Rather combine the creative workshop subs into one and put a clear label "for Chronicles fan art" onto the forum description.

[I'm Murrin]

Frostheart, my suggestion was to move Chronicles art into the Hall of Gifts and make that a top-level forum.

[TheFallen]

Although no long-term Watch member - I've been here a mere 3 1/2 years, far fewer than many of you doddering crusties - I thought I'd chip in with a few thoughts anyway.

People in this thread have talked about a transition and maybe that's the route KW needs to go down in order to not wither. So first off, the Watch needs to decide what it now wants to be - against today's background, where SRD has completed TCoTC, for better or worse. Does it still want to lead so strongly with being the home for SRD devotees? Or is this reversing itself into more of a backwater, since it's almost inevitable that, now Stevie's magnum opus is complete, this core subject matter is going to be of ever-diminishing appeal.

That's not of course to say that KW should abandon its original raison d'être entirely - that'd be ridiculous. Although it's usually fraught with fallacy to look to personal example, I found my way here as a fan of the Chrons, but soon discovered that KW was at least in part somewhere where thought-provoking discussions on a wide range of issues took place. There's in general a high standard of intellectual rigour here, which is frankly refreshing.

This discussion itself about the Watch is pretty much all about marketing. First decide what you want to be, which will then define who you want to appeal to, and then go about spreading the word. I'm sure several here among the admins know far more about SEO than I do, but I'd bet that, once KW has decided what its target market is, quite a lot could be done in terms of furthering its message/appeal along those lines.

I'm also a fan of KISS theory (Keep It Simple, Stupid). To me, it's pretty obvious that *any* establishment looking to attract a clientele puts its most desirable and popular goods in prime shop window position. To this end, I heartily agree with calls for a restructuring of the KW home page - it's way too complex and could/should be massively simplified. To wit...

The entirety of the Group Readings section could be assimilated into the various relevant sections of the SRD Forums.

The SRD Forums themselves could be cut down from its current 8 Forum level to at most 4 (1st & 2nd Chrons, Last Chrons, Other SRD Works, General)

As for the Multifariam, given the popularity of General Discussion, move it right up the page into The Watch Section. Mothball the Watchy Awards (what's the point of them?) and move General Fantasy/Sci-Fi Discussion into The Library (which should have its own main heading anyway).

The Hegemony is I think - and I'll admit some personal bias here - the great unsung jewel in the KW crown. In The Close and very specially The Tank it features on post count alone the two most active forums on the entirety of the Watch... and yet these two are buried in submenus low down on the homepage. Sorry, but that's just dumb marketing. Bring them to the fore and give them their own homepage descriptor.

So... I'd go something like...

THE WATCH
* Announcements & Suggestions
* Q&A + Help
* The Summonsing
* General Discussion

SRD FORUMS
* The First and Second Chronicles
* The Last Chronicles
* Other Works by SRD
* General SRD Discussion

THE HEGEMONY
* Hile Troy's Think Tank
* The Close
* The Loresraat
* Doriendor Corishev

THE LIBRARY
* Whatever
* Whatever
* Whatever
* Whatever
* Whatever

SCATTERLINGS/THE WAYMEET
* In Pursuit Of Mallory
* The Hall Of Gifts
* The Galley
* Sports
* Vespers
* TV Shows
* Movies
* RPGs
* Other

[Cail]

I'd go further....


THE WATCH
* Announcements, Suggestions & Help
* The Summonsing
* General Discussion

SRD FORUMS
* The Chronicles of Thomas Covenant
* Other Works by SRD
* General SRD Discussion

THE HEGEMONY
* Hile Troy's Think Tank
* The Close
* The Loresraat/Doriendor Corishev

THE LIBRARY
* Other Authors/General Literature

SCATTERLINGS/THE WAYMEET
* In Pursuit Of Mallory
* The Hall Of Gifts
* The Galley
* Sports
* Vespers
* TV Shows
* Movies
* RPGs
* Other

[lorin]

I'd go further....


THE WATCH
* Announcements, Suggestions & Help
* The Summonsing
* General Discussion

SRD FORUMS
* The Chronicles of Thomas Covenant
* Other Works by SRD
* General SRD Discussion

THE HEGEMONY
* Hile Troy's Think Tank
* The Close
* The Loresraat/Doriendor Corishev

THE LIBRARY
* Other Authors/General Literature

SCATTERLINGS/THE WAYMEET
* In Pursuit Of Mallory
* The Hall Of Gifts
* The Galley
* Sports
* Vespers
* TV Shows
* Movies
* RPGs
* Other

[TheFallen]

Yep Cail... that's better than my suggestion. More succinct.

[aliantha]

Not bad, Cail.

I could see putting TC art and the writing forum as subforums under the HoG.

Av, how much of a pain would it be to implement this kind of change?

And btw, anyone who wants to join the writing forum, please apply. We set it up initially as a place for the Watch's writers to share their stuff behind a locked door and get useful critique from other writers -- a plan that was almost immediately defeated by the BBS architecture. It's difficult to critique prose when it's single-spaced in a tiny font -- you almost have to copy-and-paste it into Word and print it out to make it readable. And poetry suffers because the board strips out any leading spaces in a line, making indentation virtually impossible. Maybe we ought to be concentrating in there on just talking about the mechanics of writing? Maybe that would bring participation up? I dunno. Looking for suggestions here.

[SoulBiter]

I dunno -- Mallory's and the Tank do look kind of similar, if you squint just right...

All other threads are subsets of the Tank, which is why they all look like the Tank with the correct ambient lighting.

Agreed!!!

I also think there is value in decreasing the number of sub-forums. There are so many, I find that I cant even begin to go into many of them and thus I dont even try.

[SerScot]

This is me, but I think the Tank, the Close, and General Discussion ought to be on subforum. Levity helps defuse tense discussions that go on in Political topics and personally I just like mixing philosophy with politics because I think politics is part of philosophy and philosophy is part of politics.

[SerScot]

Oh, we're over 2100 for the month. That's the first time in two months.

[kevinswatch]

All very good thoughts. I'm glad to see continued interested in the Watch, a full 14 years or so since I started this goofy ass site.

If I had only known the folly of my ways.

Anyway, even though I myself am only a sporadic poster right now, I still like to check in and post every once in a while.

For the record, I totally support any reduction of forums, as suggested by Murrin, Cail, and others. If we come up with a list that people (for the most part) agree with, then it's fine with me. I agree that there are a number of outdated forums (like the TC Movie forum and others) that should go away.

And for the record, I'm finally done with the bloody Last Chronicles. I said my peace in my one topic on the matter. Although unfortunately I don't have much new to add to the discussion, as my feelings on the Last Chronicles are similar to those like Z.

But it is nice to see the Watch live on.

I'm sure it will continue even though SRD is done with the Last Chronicles. Remember that I started this site in 2000. That was a full 17 YEARS after White Gold Wielder was released. And a good number of years before we even knew of the POSSIBILITY of the Last Chronicles. Who knows will happen next. Mayhaps SRD will surprise us with something new and better (and more puissant).

-jay

[I'm Murrin]

The Watch will always be a Stephen R Donaldson fan site. As such, I feel that the removal of the Gap and Mordant's Need forums should not be on the table.

...And by my own logic there, I guess we must say that his Reed Stephens books should be represented also.

I'm not convinced we need General SRD Discussion, though. Topics there could be in "other works", or in the "general" sections of the board. Elohimfest, for example, would fit in General Discussion (Elohimfest being a community event, and Gen Disc being a discussion place for the community in question).

As for the Tank, I'm not a participant in the place and I'm not enthusiastic about the idea of promoting it further, but whatever, I'm not going to argue strongly against it.

I do think, as a community of fans of a fantasy and sci fi writer, the discussion forums for other literature have a place above the more general topics, though.

[TheFallen]

The Watch will always be a Stephen R Donaldson fan site. As such, I feel that the removal of the Gap and Mordant's Need forums should not be on the table. ...And by my own logic there, I guess we must say that his Reed Stephens books should be represented also.

I don't believe anyone's saying "remove 'em", just lump them together under a main "Other Works by SRD" forum category. If one's to get mathematical about it, to date Gap/Mordant/Reed have garnered a total of 427 topics between them, that only being a combined 12% of the total 3,568 topics created about SRD's oeuvres. Pretty much the same percentage applies if one looks at posts rather than topics.

I'm not convinced we need General SRD Discussion, though. Topics there could be in "other works", or in the "general" sections of the board. Elohimfest, for example, would fit in General Discussion (Elohimfest being a community event, and Gen Disc being a discussion place for the community in question).

That's very commonsensical IMO.

As for the Tank, I'm not a participant in the place and I'm not enthusiastic about the idea of promoting it further, but whatever, I'm not going to argue strongly against it.

You may not be enthusiastic about it - and why should you be? - but the stark clear fact remains that the Tank is by far and away the most active section of KW, so presumably therefore has the most long-term appeal, generally speaking. There's no point trying to fight market forces. Similarly, Mallorys - the appeal and purpose of which totally passes me by, but again so what? - is in a healthy second place as regards activity. Ergo it makes a great deal of sense to elevate these two to higher profile "also starring" type billing on the homepage, no? Both seem to be what the "public" want...

I do think, as a community of fans of a fantasy and sci fi writer, the discussion forums for other literature have a place above the more general topics, though.

Fair point... perhaps we should go with...

THE WATCH
* Announcements, Suggestions & Help - Check out the latest forum news, let us know what you think we can do to improve the site and get help here.
* The Summonsing - Hey Newbies, over here first Come on in and tell us more about yourself. Also for general comings and goings and personal announcements.
* General Discussion - Free, open, general chat on any topic, plus news on group meetings, elohimfest discussions, SRD sightings and more.

SRD FORUMS
* The Chronicles of Thomas Covenant - Discuss the Chronicles of Thomas Covenant here.
* Other Works by SRD - Talk about SRD's scifi Gap series, other epic fantasy, mystery novels, poems, and anything else he wrote.

THE LIBRARY
* Other Fantasy/Sci-Fi - A place to discuss imaginary worlds that are *not* Donaldson's.
* General Literature - For those who want to talk about other authors, but can't be bothered to go join other boards...

THE HEGEMONY
* Hile Troy's Think Tank - Solving world socio-economic problems, one argument at a time.
* The Close - Free discussion of anything human or divine. Philosophy, Religion and Spirituality.
* The Loresraat - Technology, computers, sciences, mysteries and phenomena of all kinds, etc., etc. all here at The Loresraat.
* Doriendor Corishev - Those who do not learn history are doomed to use this quote over and over again.

THE HALL OF GIFTS
* Gallery - A showcase for sharing and discussing fan-created artwork from the Chronicles.
* Scribblings - The place for fiction and poetry (SRD inspired or otherwise).

SCATTERLINGS/THE WAYMEET
* In Pursuit Of Mallory - A haven for all the game threads.
* The Galley - Learn how to make Spring Wine and aliantha cookies.
* Sports - Baseball, Basketball, Footbal, Soccer, Curling, Poker, etc...
* Vespers - Who's listening to what, what's going on in the music industry...
* TV Shows - Talk about all your favorite series, shows, programs, news anchorpeople, etc.
* Movies - The KWMdB.
* RPGs - Discussion board based role-playing games such as Pantheon.
* Other - Everything else.

The point surely is that the homepage then becomes less cluttered AND all the asterisk-marked sections above can then have a short one-line description, which can only be a positive thing...

ADDED EDIT... of course any of the main asterisked topics in the list above could also have sub-forums listed underneath, much as for example The Hegemony does now. It strikes me that the proposed TCOTC forum above would benefit from a homepage split into two subforums underneath.

[I'm Murrin]

You know, at first I wasn't agreeing with the Gravin Threndor forums being kept off the lists here, but right now Heart of God is the only game going, and after a little thought I think I'd be perfectly able to run that game from a single topic within another forum.

That hasn't been true with past games which had a lot of in-character interaction, but HoG hasn't really had any of that, and the forum's just being used for general updates, and hosting the map/rules/information.

[High Lord Tolkien]

Hello everyone.
I've been off the KW grid this past year.
Just flat out busy as hell.

I think the SRD website took a lot of the fun out of KW.
There's really no fun in speculating or having opinions anymore after the author gradually answers all of our questions on KW.
Not a complaint, just the way it goes.
Kind of like the FAQ killed a lot of the fun for me with Tolkien Usenet discussions many years ago.

Hopefully I'll be about to participate more in the future. Until then I'm going to try to spread the word about KW on other places I visit.

[MsMary]

I'd go further....


THE WATCH
* Announcements, Suggestions & Help
* The Summonsing
* General Discussion

SRD FORUMS
* The Chronicles of Thomas Covenant
* Other Works by SRD
* General SRD Discussion

THE HEGEMONY
* Hile Troy's Think Tank
* The Close
* The Loresraat/Doriendor Corishev

THE LIBRARY
* Other Authors/General Literature

SCATTERLINGS/THE WAYMEET
* In Pursuit Of Mallory
* The Hall Of Gifts
* The Galley
* Sports
* Vespers
* TV Shows
* Movies
* RPGs
* Other

I like this.

TheFallen's suggested forums list makes sense, also.

Agreed that this will always be an SRD fan site. The main focus has always been TCTC. So makes sense to have a TCTC forum and an "other works" forum.

[TheFallen]

I think Frosty's right to suggest a main category for creative stuff, including artwork and writing, hence my idea to have a Hall of Gifts main section on the home page covering off both.