Kevin's Watch

Revan wrote:Humanity needed Holt to survive.

I see this statement as wrong. SRD would not have ended the series with Holt as necessary to humanity's future. That's not how he writes. In fact, the last chapter is humanity reborn, and certainly gives every indication that they can fight. For a start, Min would not allow the amnion their precious resources, and with billinsgate destroyed the aliens have lost a major source of human supplies. The amnion have also lost 2 behemoths.

Well I fear we'll have to agree to disagree. We clearly won't change each others minds.

But even you an't deny Holt was a genius in his own way. To achieve the things he achieved.

Revan wrote:Well I fear we'll have to agree to disagree. We clearly won't change each others minds.

But even you an't deny Holt was a genius in his own way. To achieve the things he achieved.

He achieved what? Hashi achieved everything, Holt just set up a way to make money on the backs of human suffering and off the Amnion. He actually did nothing to stop the amnion threat, and allowed them to prepare to invade. Yes, that is real foresight.

My final point: if he was so good for humanity, why did Warden even act? Warden would have just suicided because of his guilt.

Holt was not good for humanity. Holt was very, very bad for humanity, and I wouldn't advocate leaving him in a position of power.

My point is, however wretched humanity was under Holt, it was at least alive. I don't think anyone else had the combination of vision and ruthlessness that is required to survive the Amnion.

You point out that the Amnion developed near-C velocities etc during Holt's tenure; I would counter by drawing your attention to the fact that the Amnion had no reason to use these technologies until Warden starting fighting Holt. Holt may not have been able to prevent the Amnion developing their weapons and other useful bits and pieces, but he did hold them in a position where using these devices would be more trouble than it was worth. Warden gave them a reason to take action.

Humanity will, I think fare much better internally under the new regime; life will be better and people will be happier. But I think the life span of the human race as a whole will be much shorter.

CovenantJr wrote:Holt was not good for humanity. Holt was very, very bad for humanity, and I wouldn't advocate leaving him in a position of power.

My point is, however wretched humanity was under Holt, it was at least alive. I don't think anyone else had the combination of vision and ruthlessness that is required to survive the Amnion.

You point out that the Amnion developed near-C velocities etc during Holt's tenure; I would counter by drawing your attention to the fact that the Amnion had no reason to use these technologies until Warden starting fighting Holt. Holt may not have been able to prevent the Amnion developing their weapons and other useful bits and pieces, but he did hold them in a position where using these devices would be more trouble than it was worth. Warden gave them a reason to take action.

Humanity will, I think fare much better internally under the new regime; life will be better and people will be happier. But I think the life span of the human race as a whole will be much shorter.

Excellent post

CovenantJr wrote:You point out that the Amnion developed near-C velocities etc during Holt's tenure; I would counter by drawing your attention to the fact that the Amnion had no reason to use these technologies until Warden starting fighting Holt.

I disagree. They were developing them way before that. In fact, they tested an experimental drive using Captains Fancy. Warden did not start openly fighting Holt until midway book 3.

but he did hold them in a position where using these devices would be more trouble than it was worth.

The amnion had every intention of invading. Hence their development of genetic kazes and their interest in Davies. Holt would have run off crying when that happened.

Loremaster wrote:

Revan wrote:Well I fear we'll have to agree to disagree. We clearly won't change each others minds.

But even you an't deny Holt was a genius in his own way. To achieve the things he achieved.

He achieved what? Hashi achieved everything, Holt just set up a way to make money on the backs of human suffering and off the Amnion. He actually did nothing to stop the amnion threat, and allowed them to prepare to invade. Yes, that is real foresight.

My final point: if he was so good for humanity, why did Warden even act? Warden would have just suicided because of his guilt.

I disagree. Regarding what he achieved, i would say an immense amount. The UMCP, for whatever reasons or purposes, only exists because of Holt. Without Holt, without the UMC enormous resources and Holt's use of those resources, humanity would have been completely defenseless.

Consider the last battle, where Angus, Ciro, Davis, and Vector went to Calm Horizons, and destroyed it. How could they have done that without Angus? Angus the Cyborg wouldn't have existed if Holt hadn't pumped so much money into the UMCP to enable that kind of research, nor would Singularity Grenades exist without Holt. Oh, he didn't do the research, but his use of the UMC's vast wealth enabled humanity to have a means to defend itself by the end of the books.

Consider the immunity drug; would it have existed in the first place without Holt? Doubtful, his company saved Intertech when it became a corporate wretch; the research would have cost a great amount of money; which Holt once again enabled... yes, he suppressed it in the end; yet it was his wealth which caused it to exist in the first place.

Also, regarding Min and Hashi; they are not in charge of humanity... it is the GCES that decide matters and polices now; and Min's intense loyalty will ensure no decision gets made without the GCES' consent.

Regarding GSES's, kevinswatch.ihugny.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=12748

I suppose the reason Mr Revan and I agree on this is because Holt Fasner is not entirely different from Darth Revan (the character) in some respects. Specifically, both Fasner and Revan see the big picture clearly enough that they can see morals and ethics must take a back seat to the greater good, and they possess sufficient ruthlessness to be able to switch off any conscience they may possess. Revan would sacrifice a city of innocents in order to bring the war to a close sooner, saving far more lives. Not a moral act, perhaps, but a practical and effective one. Holt is similar (though his motives were, of course, far more self-centred than Revan's); Holt was able to see what sacrifices must be made in order to counter the greater threat, and he was detached (or perhaps amoral) enough to go through with it.

Late to the argument (as usual), but a couple rebuttals:

CovenantJr wrote:I suppose the reason Mr Revan and I agree on this is because Holt Fasner is not entirely different from Darth Revan (the character) in some respects. Specifically, both Fasner and Revan see the big picture clearly enough that they can see morals and ethics must take a back seat to the greater good, and they possess sufficient ruthlessness to be able to switch off any conscience they may possess.

I'm not familiar with Revan, but Fasner did not possess conscience, morals and ethics (neither did Hashi, but he wasn't interested in power). He believed only in himself, and when another person (Vertigus) opposed him, he did what it took to make them ineffectual, to the point of squashing them. Ruthlessness is a vice, unless countered by selflessness, as it was in Warden.

CovenantJr wrote:Holt is similar (though his motives were, of course, far more self-centred than Revan's); Holt was able to see what sacrifices must be made in order to counter the greater threat, and he was detached (or perhaps amoral) enough to go through with it.

A more important point is that Holt seemed to sponsor the good of humanity, but as we saw with the anti-mutagen drug, that was not the case. It's argued that putting it out at that time would have pushed the Amnion toward open war--which is why Warden went along with quelling it--but Holt wanted to destroy the research altogether (does that sound like foresight?), and only Warden persuaded him otherwise.

Warden, not Holt, possessed foresight. How many times in the Gap were we reminded that Warden continued to work for Holt because he knew that Holt must be stopped?

Holt only cared for himself and his precious immortality, and anything that kept the Amnion from trade, and being able to offer him that perfect, deathless existence must be crushed. And how much do you think the Amnion would have asked for, and Holt given up, for that?

It has been argued that only Holt knew how to deal with the Amnion. Frankly, I think that argument underestimates Holt's greed and obsession. I'd suggest you ask Lorna, if that were possible. She'd likely tell you that Holt was waiting for the proper time to defect. Take a look at Milos, who only wanted to survive, but did not have the power that Holt did to achieve it.

The argument that the loss of Holt dooms humanity speaks to our belief in a leader--any leader--as better than none. Most of us realize how hard it is to lead, and, however much we want to be heard, don't want to lead.

Just because there is no leader, doesn't mean one won't surface.