Kevin's Watch

If you asked the forestal Hile Troy if he regretted his decision, I don't think he would regret it. But I wonder if he ever thought of elena even after he was changed and if she visited him as a dead person in Andelain. Or maybe when his body died in the real world he completely forgot about Hile Troy and devoted himself completely to forestal concerns.

mhorgel wrote:Troy suffers from an affliction that many of the characters in the Chronicles do...hubris, or excessive pride.

Please show us one example.

mhorgel wrote: Troy has so much faith in his plan, he doesn't think he needs backups or contingencies.

Please show us one example.

Wayfriend wrote:

mhorgel wrote:Troy suffers from an affliction that many of the characters in the Chronicles do...hubris, or excessive pride.

Please show us one example.

mhorgel wrote: Troy has so much faith in his plan, he doesn't think he needs backups or contingencies.

Please show us one example.

1. Troy thought Fouls' armies could be matched and beaten with conventional warfare.

2. He marched teh Land's Armies into a fight which there was no true escape.

Okay, those are not examples, those are opinions. But I can work with that.

Byrn wrote:1. Troy thought Fouls' armies could be matched and beaten with conventional warfare.

That's not hubris. That's (a) recognizing the necessity that the Land needs to be defended and (b) being optimistic. Hubris would be, for example, marching to Foul's Creche with only 50 Bloodguard and sending all the other defenders to a vacation because they won't be needed.

Byrn wrote:2. He marched the Land's Armies into a fight which there was no true escape.

Okay, let's see if I follow this. He withheld mobilizing the army because he didn't know which way Foul was coming. Then he came up with a whole new plan to use Dooms Retreat - "a hell of a place to take on armies that are bigger and faster than you are". Then when conditions changed he gave up Doom's Retreat for Doriendor Corishev. And then again for Garroting Deep. But according to you there was no backup plan! It sounds like half the book was switching to the next backup plan.

All plans fall apart when they come into contact with the enemy.

Bump

Matrixman wrote: Troy was too easily seduced by the power and beauty around him in the Land. After all, with Lords and Bloodguard and Giants and the mighty Warward, how could he possibly lose? He was like a pitbull in his attitude, ready and eager to take a bite out of Lord Foul. There was just no room in his thinking for error or doubt--until too late.

I disagree with this. Troy questions himself frequently, Elena bolstered his self confidence by proclaiming her confidence in him. This was not a mistake. Elena had noone better to lead the Warward. Hile Troy's failings were his failure to import lessons from Earth to aid his army, failings Elena and the rest of the council had no ability to detect. He fought in the manner of the land and added only his superlative cognitive abilities as extra.

Matrixman wrote:When Caerroil Wildwood stated there was a price to be paid for his help, Troy answered (without thinking, naturally): "Then I'll pay it! I'll pay anything." I seriously doubt he knew how deep of a payment the Forestal would exact from him. Maybe Troy figured he could sit down with the Forestal later and work out the terms. Forestal: 1. Mr. Eager Pitbull: 0.

Very unfair. His army was being slaughtered right there right then, this was his finest moment, when he gave his life for the Warward. Any good commander should be willing to make that sacrifice. Troy was insistent on speed for good reason, he was also insistant that if a price was to be paid he would pay it, not Mhoram, not the Warward, noone but him.

Mhoram did attempt to caution him, but only because of concern for the welbeing of others and because he feared the price would be high. To be honest Hile Troy would have expected to be a blood sacrifice. What he becaome was a forestal, a servant yes but also in time a wielder of great power. Caerroil Wildwood didnt punish him, he took his sacrifice to mean that the Forestalship would be strengthened by taking an apprentice.

Great rebuttal, Warmark!

It could very well be that I'm being too harsh on Troy. Over the years of thinking about his character, though, I still come up with an unfavorable view of him. Sorry, I can't help it. But I do feel sorry for Troy at the end, at Gallows Howe--I felt as emotionally torn as he was at the thought of losing Elena. At that moment I was in his shoes.

What can I say? I liked Hile Troy better as a Forestal than as a Warmark. Still, it's good to hear your perspective. When I read the Chronicles again this year (heh, doesn't take much urging), I'll keep your comments in mind--as well as the comments of other new members. It's what keeps the Watch fresh and interesting!

Matrixman wrote:What can I say? I liked Hile Troy better as a Forestal than as a Warmark.

Absolutely, As a Forestal he seemed wise, no wonder after 2000 years of living, and more useful.

Warmark wrote:

Matrixman wrote:What can I say? I liked Hile Troy better as a Forestal than as a Warmark.

Absolutely, As a Forestal he seemed wise, no wonder after 2000 years of living, and more useful.

It was probably a pretty good humbling experience. And anyone who has earthpower seems to become much more pleasant to deal with.

I'm not sure if anyone has already mentioned this, but I see a big similarity with Hile Troy and the Bloodguard.
As Matrixman said, Troy was seduced by the Land in much the same way as the Bloodguard and both swore impossible promises as a result.

Both were extremely arrogant as they both believed that they were above everyone else. The Bloodguard with their 'unshakeable' loyalty and service and Troy with the belief that his 'real world' knowledge could really outsmart Foul.

Very good point.
Troy, Like the Blodguard also never took the oath of Peace.

Do we know that Troy didn't take the Oath? I have a vague recollection of some mention of reading something about it. Was it when Troy was going to try and save Elena and Mhorham stopped him saying that the Oath still applied to him?

Saying that though I find it strange that they wouldn't insist he swore the Oath before making him the Warmark.

I think the oath was assumed on him, but he never acctually swore it.

The Bloodguard didn't use needless violence themselves (except on eathother)

I remember someone saying (Mhoram I think in LFB) that the Bloodguard had 'sworn a Vow which is in no way like our Oath'.

At first I thought maybe the Oath would have conflicted with the Vow, but on further thought perhaps not. The Bloodguard didn't gratuitously kill people and were more than happy to 'hold' rather than 'hurt' unless there was no other alternative. Perhaps if they had sworn the Oath it would have prevented their ultimate downfall.

The Bloodguard served the Lords. Therefore they were constrained by the Oath indirectly (if you will). For in the service of the Lords, they acted as the Lords wished them. And the Lords, to uphold the Oath, commanded the Bloodguard in accordance with it.

As for Troy, it is revealed only late in the story:

In [u]The Illearth War[/u] wrote:The next moment, Mhoram and Quaan reached Troy. Mhoram tore the staff from his grasp; Quaan pinned his arms. "Fool!" the Lord rasped. "You forget the Oath of Peace. Loyalty is due!"

Troy struggled against Quaan. Rage and anguish mottled his face. "I haven't sworn any Oath! Let go of me!"

"You are the Warmark of the Warward," said Mhoram dangerously. "The Oath of Peace binds."

Troy is bound as the Bloodguard were. Indirectly, through service to the Lords.

But it is a mystery to me why Troy would not have sworn the Oath.

But if the Bloodguard had sworn the Oath, which was as much to defend against destructive emotions as violence, perhaps they would not have forsworn the Vow once Korik Sill and Doar had been corrupted.

Troy ruled.

troy sucked

Wayfriend wrote:

In [u]The Illearth War[/u] wrote:The next moment, Mhoram and Quaan reached Troy. Mhoram tore the staff from his grasp; Quaan pinned his arms. "Fool!" the Lord rasped. "You forget the Oath of Peace. Loyalty is due!"

Troy struggled against Quaan. Rage and anguish mottled his face. "I haven't sworn any Oath! Let go of me!"

"You are the Warmark of the Warward," said Mhoram dangerously. "The Oath of Peace binds."

Troy is bound as the Bloodguard were. Indirectly, through service to the Lords.

But it is a mystery to me why Troy would not have sworn the Oath.

Was this at Gallowes Howe?

i didn't know this thread was still active.

so the Oath is binding even if you don't actively take it? how can you be held to something you don't even state?