So......when does Nom come back into the picture?

[Avatar]

Interesting point. And a good possibility.

--A

[drew]

Could they have been this fast before the Kemper made the Doom?

I think the only reason Nom aswered TC at Revelstone, is because he was conected to Cov, because he freed him in the first place.

I'd imagine that he's the only one that could call a Sandgoran nowadays.

[High Lord Tolkien]

Could they have been this fast before the Kemper made the Doom?

I think the only reason Nom aswered TC at Revelstone, is because he was conected to Cov, because he freed him in the first place.

I'd imagine that he's the only one that could call a Sandgoran nowadays.

You're right.
If Nom "dismantled" the Doom then that particular summoning magic is over.
Good point..

[CovenantJr]

From my POV, they don't need to hear their name at all. Distance has no meaning to such power.
The power may not necessarily be the Sandgorgon itself, but the power of invocation of their name.
He doesn't need to physically hear his name, because the power invoked after it is said is the actual call.

That's how I always read it too. It didn't occur to me until this thread that the need to physically hear his name might be a possibility. I don't think Nom needed to hear his name said aloud any more than Covenant needed to hear his summoner saying "Come here, Covenant" prior to his transition to the Land.

[High Lord Tolkien]

From my POV, they don't need to hear their name at all. Distance has no meaning to such power.
The power may not necessarily be the Sandgorgon itself, but the power of invocation of their name.
He doesn't need to physically hear his name, because the power invoked after it is said is the actual call.

That's how I always read it too. It didn't occur to me until this thread that the need to physically hear his name might be a possibility. I don't think Nom needed to hear his name said aloud any more than Covenant needed to hear his summoner saying "Come here, Covenant" prior to his transition to the Land.

I think saying the name aloud *was* nessesary to trigger the Kempers magic within the Doom.
Whether or not Nom "heard" it? (did he even have ears?)
I believe he did but through magic not sound.

[ur-bane]

Well, then, it appears we are all in agreement.

[High Lord Tolkien]

Well, then, it appears we are all in agreement.

Huh?
What?
No, what I meant was that I think Avatar is 1000% WRONG about........um....
and that Wayfriend doesn't know what he's........how about......
Oh crap, I hate it when everyone agrees.
"Doesn't anyone have any missles left!"

[lurch]

...All in agreement? Well, this does not bode well . I think you have it all wrong. Its not how soon we will hear the word " Nom" spoken, that is of interest. Its how soon we hear the word " MOM" spoken that is of import.

With that spoken, its what comes racing thru time and space as a result I find intriguing to the imagination. All of a sudden at the Gates of Revelstone stands a large plump middle aged woman in house dress and apron wearing fuzzy pink slippers, " How comes you never call me? Why don't you bring the kids over ? I am their grandmother you know. I miss them so. Is this what I get for all the effort and Love I put into your upbringing for the first 20 years of your life. Is this How you repay 20 years of Love and devotion? I know I didn't raise any son to treat me this way. So how have you been?".... At which time all the Masters sneek out the back door and run pass Glimmermore. .......MEL

[ur-bane]

You know, I just can't let this whole Sangorgon thing go.

Another thought occurred to me regarding Nom. In WGW Nom rends the Raver. "The word is 'to rend'"

But that doesn't necessarily mean that samadhi Sheol is dead, does it?
Basically, Nom assimilated the raver and gained all his knowledge. But he didn't kill the raver. According to the peoples of the Land, a Raver cannot be killed. If that truly is the case, and a Raver cannot be killed, what effect will that have on Nom?

Will the Raver find a way to "possess" Nom? Has he already done so?

After Nom "dismantled Sandgorgon's doom," what did he do next?
Was his instinctual desire to destroy stone strong enough to lead him into the barren North, and maybe uncap a particular fire? Was he led to this act by the 'rent' Raver?

Will Foul use this information to inflict a huge guilt trip on our heros? Will he add more doubt into our equation?

Has the act of allowing Nom freedom come back to haunt the Land?

I have a strange suspicion that Nom is responsible for the release of the skurj, and the rent Raver led him to do it because it is still a servant of Foul.
Perhaps if we see Nom again, it will not be as we remember.

[NightBlaze]

Wow! Where did this topic come from?? Holy smoke! I dont think we will see Nom, mainly because we dont know what their life span is. It will be very interesting to see if the sandgorgons show up at all, and if they do, what manner will they appear in? After all, if that knowledge of TC was passed down through offsping, etc., then wouldnt a sandgorgon recognize Lindens name?

[finn]

We've probed some thoughts about how Nom can get to places so quickly, some thought it Earthpower and some speculated some kind of time-shift; there was also links to Ranyhyn and how they come when summoned within minutes despite how far away they may have been.

Given some of those possibilities, could the compulsion in Nom's calling use Caesures as a conduit?

[ur-bane]

Excellent thought, finn. We know that the power of the Sandgorgons transcends time. We also know that caesures did not exist when Covenant first encountered Nom.

But, that's not to say that Nom's power could not be transferred across the ages through a caesure. I personally don't want to see time travel and caesures used at every turn, but I don't know where SRD is going with the caesures.

Maybe in the end, Lord Foul will get tossed into a caesure that then escapes the Arch, and he'll be imprisoned in a void of nothingness, waiting for the odd chance that another caesure wanders near enough for him to get back into the Arch.

[dlbpharmd]

We know that the power of the Sandgorgons transcends time.

Do we? I still do not believe that the Sandgorgons have any kind of ability over time that say the Ranyhyn have.

The Ranyhyn were able to hear their call days, weeks or months ahead and leave in preperation.

The Sandgorgons heard their summons through the magic of Kaseryn's Gyre, and that magic combined with their own natural skill allowed them to travel sometimes great distances in a short amount of time.

[ur-bane]

Chalk that up as a mis-statement. I meant to say exactly the opposite. (As in my post in the previous page. )
Agreeing with finn that caesures could be used by Nom, but Nom himself could not travel through time on his own.

[finn]

My thinking was going along the lines that I don't see 'magic' as a pure, acceptable, catch-all, or a get out of jail free card for lazy authors: if SRD did this I think I'd be very disappointed. Drop an apple and it hits the ground, if it does not then why not, what are the rules and how is it repeatable. Someone on here recently called this "fantasy physics" which is a great expression for what I'm waffling about.

As noted above there is a difference of opinion on what happens with the Sandgorgons and the Ranyhyn when they are summoned. Some have attributed it Earthpower, Kaseryn's magic and as DLB has observed the ability to hear the summons ahead of it actually happening.

My own leaning is towards a sort of time shift. Ranyhyn and Sandgorgons traverse vast distances in short spaces of time by stepping into and out of time "doors". Whilst there are explanations about reading the future requirements for their services and the power of Kaseryn's spell, I think a simler explanation may be that the "fantasy physics" which allow Joan to produce Caesures may also allow the Ranyhyn to be in place at the right time and also allow the Sandgorgons to cover enormous distances.

Now Caesures could be the extreme of this law of fantasy physics, ie, the force 12, whereas the Ranyhyn might only require force 3. This appears to me at least more logical that they can traverse time by stepping in and out of a 'relative' present.

The explanation of the Ranyhyn ability was described by a character (one of the Lords I think) as "they understood it", Myths are often rationalisations of events where facts are not known like the stories about the arch of time/rainbow/one tree myths.

Ranyhyn have an understanding of time and place translation, I think that this is how they've been able to answer their summonses. This does not disqualify the previous explanation, maybe they do actually hear 'ahead of time' in a sense. If this were so, then I think the Sandgorgons could possibly do the same; who's to say Kaseryn didn't utilise this force when creating the doom?

Now if my logic has been followed so far, their traversal of time/distance could be much greater than we've seen so far...say 4000 years.

[wayfriend]

Ranyhyn and Sandgorgons traverse vast distances in short spaces of time by stepping into and out of time "doors".

I have to disagree on this based on the text. The Ranyhyn do not travel vast distances in short spaces of time at all.

Mhoram groaned at the sight. In order to answer his call, the Ranyhyn must have left the Plains of Ra scores of days ago ...

The Ranyhyn travel at the ordinary speed of superior horses. (And so Drinny took scores of days to travel from Ra to Revelstone via the Westron Mountains.) However, they defy time such that they hear the summons before it is made, by an amount of time equal to the time it takes to travel to the caller. (Drinny heard the call scores of days in advance, and then took the same number of days to reach Revelstone.) The result is that the call is answered as soon as it is made.

The Sandgorgons, on the other hand, do traverse vast distances in short spaces of time. (At least, this is my opinion.) They are simply so powererful, and that power is expressed in physical form, that they can achieve almost any speed that they care to. I'm sure if we calculated Nom's journey from the Doom to Revelstone in mph, it would be rediculous.

[dlbpharmd]

Agreed, well said.

[Warmark]

Ranyhyn and Sandgorgons traverse vast distances in short spaces of time by stepping into and out of time "doors".

I have to disagree on this based on the text. The Ranyhyn do not travel vast distances in short spaces of time at all.

Mhoram groaned at the sight. In order to answer his call, the Ranyhyn must have left the Plains of Ra scores of days ago ...

The Ranyhyn travel at the ordinary speed of superior horses. (And so Drinny took scores of days to travel from Ra to Revelstone via the Westron Mountains.) However, they defy time such that they hear the summons before it is made, by an amount of time equal to the time it takes to travel to the caller. (Drinny heard the call scores of days in advance, and then took the same number of days to reach Revelstone.) The result is that the call is answered as soon as it is made.

The Sandgorgons, on the other hand, do traverse vast distances in short spaces of time. (At least, this is my opinion.) They are simply so powererful, and that power is expressed in physical form, that they can achieve almost any speed that they care to. I'm sure if we calculated Nom's journey from the Doom to Revelstone in mph, it would be rediculous.

Absolutely, was going to say the same thing, Drinny had to actually run the distance to revelstone.

[finn]

Well caught guys!

A couple of things, firstly I meant to use a comma before the quote not a full stop, which made it an opinion not a statement; indirectly tho' I still think it has some merit.

Secondly the opinion is probably not expressed well enough to capture others in my train of thought, apologies. What I think I'm getting at is that both Ranyhyn and Sandgorgons "appear" a short time after calling. This means some aspect of those processes defy time/space.

With the Sandgorgons, I personally do not think the unrealistic numbers associated with Nom's speed would hold up to examination, we would get involved with the sort of stuff scientists at JPL would have trouble with. As I said previously, the caesures are a mechanism to traverse time/space and whatever the "lore" involved, it clearly IS available within the land.

My theory is that this "lore" is available in super strength ie caesures, or in other less extreme quantities and as I said, there is nothing to say that Kaseryn did not tap into this as part of the "magic" of Sandgorgon's Doom.

The Situation with Ranyhyn is different, what I was suggesting is that the idea that Ranyhyn hear their calling, say two weeks ahead of time, was the rationalisation of people in the land who could not conceive of time travel, like Adam and Eve in the dark ages 1000 years before Darwin was born. Perhaps I'm mistaken, but the explanation of them leaving weeks ahead of time was offered by people in the book, not directly by the author. In the next book, SRD could simply say..."people have always assumed...." and then explanation we have to date vanishes.

I'm happy to accept that's a bit of a stretch....


..........however, the method of Ranyhyn receiving those summonses could still be via the same "lore" which transcends normal time/space.

IF and it is a big if, there is such lore used by the Sandgorgons, then the limitations on it have so far been between the caller and the called, ie the distance between Nom and TC when he utters the sandgorgon's name. Therefore, given what we know already of caesures, Nom could conceivably answer a call from the past to the present.

I'm not sure anyone's going to agree with this but I think as a theory it would hold water.

[The Somberlain]

But caesures are a wild magic thing, a breach in not only Law, but the fabric of their universe. As far as I can tell, they're creations of Joan's white gold... not some sort of lore. I don't think that the inhabitants of the land would be able to use something like that without white gold. Not quite sure how Esmer is able to control them, but I think he gave some sort of explanation. But I believe that he's a special case.

I think that, unrealistic in our own terms as it may be, the Sandgorgons simply run very, very fast. There's a short gap, but it is a gap, between the calling and the appearance. Assuming their Earth is the same sort of size as our Earth, Sandgorgon's Doom --> Revelstone could be done in about that time if he travelled at something above the speed of sound. Not entirely inconceivable, especially as Sandgorgons seem built pretty sturdily. Perhaps - wild speculation here - Kasreyn constructed Sandgorgon's Doom to expel the Sandgorgon at high speed when it was called. That way, wherever he was, he could summon a Sandgorgon pretty quickly to do whatever he wanted done.

I don't think that Sheol will make a reappearance. I might be wrong there, but the term "to rend" does mean that the Raver's been "ripped up". I think it was meant as a word that's more final than death, not less; kill a Raver, and it comes back. Rend it asunder and it won't. Nom certainly didn't seem to have changed for the worse at the end of WGW.

That said, SRD does have penchant for people's seemingly sensible plans never, ever turning out as they'd hoped.