Kevin's Watch

I would agree that Philip Jose Farmer's sci-fi and fantasy stuff, like the Dayworld series and the Riverworld series are as good or superior to the Gap or the Chrons.

Not having read most of the work Ainulindale refers to, I can't honestly say I disagree...but I would put SRD quite a bit above Tad Williams in any hierarchy. I like Tad Williams's stories; I found Memory, Sorrow, Thorn a very entertaining series, but while he's an excellent storyteller, I just don't think he comes close to being the writer that Donaldson is.

I don't really read enough sci-fi to judge how well the Gap stands up as speculative fiction, but in my opinion SRD's sheer writerly skill far exceeds 99% of the competition. He might not be the #1 sci-fi writer, but not to put too fine a point on it, I think he's one of the top five writers of sci-fi. The difference I'm trying to point to is a little fuzzy even in my own head, so if nobody has any idea what I'm talking about, sorry! I sort of mean that rather than classifying him as a sci-fi writer, I think of him as a writer who has written sci-fi, and done a brilliant job of it.

I'm glad someone mentioned Philip K. Dick. Sci-fi is about ideas and no one really had more, or more profound, than PKD.

But the question is who is the best sci-fi writer. The man who handles those ideas he has with the greatest skill, puts the most depth in his work, has the most impact.

Although its hard to argue against Frank Herbert I need to throw another name into the mix. William Gibson. His work goes beyond the genre and stands alone as literature, profound, sublime, timeless.

I gotta go with you on this one. Gibson was a pioneer without doubt. He coined the term Cyber-space while there were still only green-screen monitors.

I've often thought that part of the reason that technology is evolving as it is, is because Gibson wrote it that way. The Techies read his books, and thought: "God, that's so cool. Let's see if we can make it like that."

A real case of life imitating art?

--Avatar

Life imitating art is creepy. The first time I used video-conferencing, I didn't think much of it. Then afterwards it hit me that I'd just been talking on a picture phone. My bf had a flip phone for three months before I realized he was using a Communicator a la Star Trek.

William Gibson is a prophet. So was Gene Roddenberry. To be a good scifi writer, you need the ability to see where technology could logically go, and then you need a graceful control of language so you can name that imagined (tho not necessarily imaginary) technology. Gibson's probably the best at this.

I guess it's really hard to decide for me, their are so many differnt branches of Sci-fi, and it hard to give one more credence than others for me. Space Opera's? Probably Peter F. Hamilton or Lois Mcmaste Bujold. Hard Sci-fi, probably Asimov. Gibson is defintely a pioneer, their is no question about that , but can't say I think he is the best science fiction writer ever. I just can't say I enjoyed any of his work more than Simmon's Hyperion Cantos.

but I would put SRD quite a bit above Tad Williams in any hierarchy. I like Tad Williams's stories; I found Memory, Sorrow, Thorn a very entertaining series, but while he's an excellent storyteller, I just don't think he comes close to being the writer that Donaldson is

It's understandable but I think they compare rather favorably. However you bringing up writing is an interesting point, I think the same of Donaldson as you do Williams a good storyteller, and a very capable writer, but certainly his writing in terms of prose doesn't approach the level of a Gene Wolfe, or China Mieville.

He might not be the #1 sci-fi writer, but not to put too fine a point on it, I think he's one of the top five writers of sci-fi.

Admittedly, I am much more read in fantasy than I am Sci-fi, but I absolutely don't agree with that, but again respect any opinion. Top 5, would have to put him over most of these in sci fi, just to name a few:

Issac Asimov
Robert Heinlen
Robert Silveberg
Dan Simmons
Philip Jose Farmer
Peter F. Hamilton
Lois Mcmaster Bujold
Roger Zelanzy
Ursula Leguin
Philip K. Dick
Gene Wolfe
Frank Herbert
Poul Anderson
John C. Wright
Michael Swanwick
Dougles Adams
Orson Scott Card
Arthur C. Clarke
Larry Niven
Fredrick Pohl
Theodore Sturgeon
Michael Swanwick
Jack Vance

I simply don't think Donaldson is superior in Sci-fi to any of them. Which doesn't mean he is not a superior writer, but I'm just trying to be realistic. Donaldson doesnt approach them in their quantity of quality IMHO.

IMHO Donaldson is a very good writer, I absolutely love his work, but we are talking about Legends when your talking about Best in Science Fiction.

I've read most of these sf-fantasy writers you people mention, and I still think Donaldson is superior. Perhaps it's because epic fantasy and space opera are two of my very favorite sub-genres, and those are the specific branches of speculative fiction that SRD has chosen to write in.

I happen to think LeGuin and Wolfe in particular are over-rated.

I do like Vance, but more his sf than his fantasy.

Silverberg is frustratingly inconsistent, perhaps because he's so prolific.

Well, Ainulindale left out Ray Bradbury, David Brin, Walter Jon Williams, Alfred Bester and (most importantly David Zindell! ) But all in all: not a bad list at all...

Perhaps it's because epic fantasy and space opera are two of my very favorite sub-genres, and those are the specific branches of speculative fiction that SRD has chosen to write in.

I can undertsand your stance more in that case than. I to am a fan of epic fantasy, but have to admit I have been more than disappointed in the quality of writing present in that branch of fantasy as of late. I guess it just goes under different preferences for different people. I think Donaldson is perhaps a top 25 fantasy author, who has writen one of the top 10 epic fantasy series, and in doing so created one of fantasy's most memorable characters. In regards to Science Fiction, I think he more than capable but don't consider Donaldson on that elite tier. I have only read 1 of his straight fiction novels The Man who Killed his Brother, and thought it was okay, but in comparison to say straight fiction novels by Michael Moorcock like Pyrat Quartet, London Bone, Mother London not too grand.

All in all I respect anyone's opinion, and it's interesting to hear them:)

I have yet to see any author I can rank above SRD's TCTC series-tell me who you rank above him and I will gladly compare who I've read or read whomever I haven't. In Sci-Fi I too love Simmons but until you've read Zindell's Neverness and A Requiem for Homo Sapiens you can't put a stamp on anything.

I have yet to see any author I can rank above SRD's TCTC series-tell me who you rank above him and I will gladly compare who I've read or read whomever I haven't

I started making a list, and honestly it was just getting much too long i was at about 35 authors and their novels and was still going), so I cut it into just epic fantasy (as The Covenant series is epic fantasy), and listed the only epic series I would include in my top 10 fantasy list. (I am excluding Tolkien as IMHO that is just understood IMHO, and I don't feel like debating the merits of the biggest and most influential name in epic fantasy) So that said George R.R. Martin's A Song of Ice and Fire is the only example of epic fantasy (besides Tolkien) that would be included in my personal Top 10 fantasy works, or more aptly authors. I love epic fantasy, but I have to admit at the moment it's greatly derivative, and seemingly the best talent lies in other branches of fantasy at the moment.

Just for perspective this is my top Top 25 authors (based on fantasy not strictly Sci-fi, and mind you these are my favorites, I by no means imply their better than any one else's preferences, list not exlcusvie to epic)):

China Mieville
Jeff Vandermeer
Michael Moorcock
George R.R. Martin
Neil Gaiman
Jonathan Carroll
James Blaylock
Tim Powers
Terry Pratchett
Rhys Hughes
JRR Tolkien
Fritz Leiber
Alan Moore
Mervyn Peake
Neal Stephenson
Ian R. Macleod
Philip Pullman
Philip Jose Farmer
Zoran Živković
Steven Erikson or R. Scott Bakker
(my next 25 would most likely include the likes of Donaldson, Williams, Wolfe, Leguin, Hobb, Swanwick, Poul Anderson, Zelanzy, Howard, etc (I can deliver a mroe comprensive list if necessary))


I also want to add, that although they haven't written alot, I am extremely impressed with Susanna Clarke's Jonathan Strange and Mr. Norrell, KJ Bishops's Etched City and Matthew Rossi's Thing's that Never Were, 3 novels I would put in my top 50 all time, they are just incredibly written IMHO.

Well, we'll never get anywhere by debating--I'm way too stubborn for that--we all see the universe differently. I love Elrick and like Williams but I, for one couldn't mention them in the same breath as Donaldson. I guess we should really be concerned about who is left off these lists like Patricia McKillup, E. R. Eddison, Hannes Bok, Lord Dunsany, William Morris, Guy Gaviel Kay and David Zindell (with his Ea Cycle books). May be Dunsany, Morris and Bok (and even James Stoddard) don't classify as epic fantasy, but the others do.

A re-iteration for vernor vinge

.

I love Elrick and like Williams but I, for one couldn't mention them in the same breath as Donaldson.

I only mention Williams in the same breath with Donaldson (and taht is very good). IMHO Looking at the body of Moorcock's works (which is far, far more than just the Elric saga), I consider it vastly superior to Donaldson. While Donaldson is a great author his influence doesn't appraoch Moorcock's who is often associated with the begining of New Wave fantasy, look at his body of work isfdb.tamu.edu/cgi-bin/ea.cgi?Michael_Moorcock.

I guess we should really be concerned about who is left off these lists like Patricia McKillup, E. R. Eddison, Hannes Bok, Lord Dunsany, William Morris, Guy Gaviel Kay and David Zindell (with his Ea Cycle books). May be Dunsany, Morris and Bok (and even James Stoddard) don't classify as epic fantasy, but the others do.

No concern, I love Mckillip's Riddle Master of Hed series (truly an underated series, not to mention her Sci-fi work), and would also be in that second group (ahead of Donaldson as well), I loved the classics like Worm Oourboros by Eddison, and Lord Dunsany's Elf King's Daughter whom also would be on my second 20-25 listed. However depending on what school of fantasy one prefers, would dictate what order people put their authors in. I think people like Dunsany, Eddison, and Lewis, and other like the Inklings, are all elite authors, but I prefer Peake myself, and those are very different schools of thought/preferences. Don't get me wrong all those names you listed (even Kay, who I enjoy even tho he infringes on the nerves of many Tolkien fans:) I like immensely and I want to add any author who I would put in my top 100 to be exceptional (their is alot of fantasy out there, and a lot of it mediocre IMHO). I think I would consider authors like Terry Brooks concerning body of work, I found his Word/Void series to be wonderful) ,and David Gemmell to be very average and would rate outside of my top 100, yet still their work is not horrible by most standards.

Good talk Danlo regardless, we all have differing views, that's what makes places like this interesting:)

Here's a list of Sci-Fi/Fantasy series I posted about a year ago on another thread that may be of interest to you...

The Chronicles of Thomas Covenant-Donaldson
Neverness/A Requiem for Homo Sapiens-Zindell
A Song of Ice and Fire-Martin:f
Dune-Herbert
The Lord of the Rings/The Silmarillion-Tolkien
The Gap Saga-Donaldson
The "Uplift" series-Brin
Hyperion-Simmons
New Sun-Wolfe
Earthsea-Le Guin:f
Metaplanetary/Superluminal-Daniel
Illuminatus!-Wilson & Shea
The Hitchhiker's Guide books-Adams
Metropolitian/City on Fire-W. J. Williams
The Ea Cycle-Zindell:f
Foundation-Assimov
Otherland-T. Williams (about to read M, S, T)
The Silence Leigh Trilogy-Melissa Scott
The Chronicles of Amber-Zelazny:f
The Riddle Master of Hed-McKillip:f
Mordant's Need-Donaldson:f
The Worm Oroborous/The Mezantium trilogy-Eddison:f
Elric-Moorcock:f
The Ice Saga-Fortchen:f
King Kull-Howard:f
The Pelbar Cycle-P. O. Williams:f


Yet to be read and greatly anticipated: Erikson, Hamilton & Kay

___________

Ian Banks is another great writer and it always irks me that John Varley, Melissa Scott and Samuel R. Delaney fail to be mentioned, frequently, on Sci Fi lists...

I have to make a plug for the Cyber-punkers too: William Gibson, Lucious Shepard and Bruce Sterling---whether we like it or not Stephenson's awesome works owe a great deal to these guys

You are very well read, Danlo.

Danlo it would be rathrr time consuming to list the works I have read, I am a bit of a colelcor and have now well over 3,000 hardback of science fiction and fantasy novels (admittedly some are redundant, due to special editions/autographed novel, and anniversay editions/ going back and obtaining first editons) here is a very small list I posted on another board of some of my favorite works, note that I only listed some of their works that I enjoyed not all that I have read or own by their names.:

1. JRR Tolkien (The Lord of the Rings, The Silmarillion, The Hobbit)
2. George R.R. Martin (A Song of Ice and Fire series, Fevre Dream, The Hedge Knight)
3. Neil Gaiman (American Gods, Neverwhere, Stardust, Good Omens (with Terry Pratchett), Coraline)
4. Terry Pratchett (Discword series, Good Omens (with Neil Gaiman)
5. China Mieville (King Rat, Perdido Street Station, The Scar, Iron Council)
6. Michael Moorcock (Elric Saga, Corum novels)
7. Dan Simmons (The Hyperion Cantos, Illium (Olympos forthcoming)
8. Mervyn Peake (Gormenghast series)
9. Fritz Lieber (Lanhkmar series)
10. Steven King (Dark Tower series, Eyes of the Dragon, The Stand)
11. Tad Williams (Otherland series, Memory, Sorrow, and Thorn series, War of Flowers, Shadowmarch)
12. Stephen Donaldson (The Chronicles of Thomas Covenant)
13. Jonathan Carroll (everything he has ever written starting with and especially The Land of Laughs)
14. Tim Powers (everything, particularly The Anubis Gates, The Last Call, On Stranger Tides)
15. James P. Blaylock (The Paper Grail, The Last Coin)
16. Robin Hobb (The Farseer Trilogy, Tawnyman series, The Live Ship Traders series)
17. Frank Herbert (Dune)
18. Peter F. Hamilton (The Night’s Dawn trilogy)
19. Roger Zelazny (The Chronicles of Amber, The Lord of the Light)
20. Lois Mcmaster Bujold (Vorkogigan series, Curse of Chalion, Paladin of Souls)
21. Patricia Mckillip (Riddle of the Stars (IMHO one of the most underated series in the genre)
22. Gene Wolfe (Book of the New Sun, Wizard/Knight series)
23. CS Lewis (Chronicles of Narnia)
24. Phillip Pullman (His Dark Materials series)
25. Neal Stephenson (The Baroque cycle, Snow Crash)
26. Orson Scott Card (Enders series)
27. Issac Asimov (Foundation series)
28. Ursula Leguin (Earthsea cycle)
29. Ian McCleod (The Light Ages)
30. Robert Howard (Conan)
31. Marion Zimmer Bradley (Myst’s of Avalon)
32. Brian Jaques (Redwall series)
33. R. Scott Bakker (The Prince of Nothing series)
34. Steven Erikson (Malazan series)
35. JV Jones (Sword of Shadows series, Book of Words series, The Barbed Coil
36. Raymond Feist (Coldfire Trilogy)
37. Douglas Adams (Hitchikers Guide to the Galaxy)
38. Poul Anderson (really everything a legend in Sci-fi and The Broken Sword)
39. Arthur C. Clarke (Rendevouz with Rama, The City and The Stars)
40. Anne McCaffery (Pern series)
41. Robert Silverberg (Everything, most recently editing the Legends anothologies)
42. Susanna Clark (Jonathan Strange and Mr. Norrell (I know it’s new but its incredible)
43. Michael Swanwick (Stations of the Tide, and just about everything else)
44. Guy Gavriel Kay (Fionvar Tapestrey, Tigana, The Lion’s of Al-Rassan)
45. Lynn Flewelling (The Tamir trilogy)
46. Clive Barker (Abarat series)
47. E.R. Eddison (The Worms of Ouroboros)
48. Charles de Lint (All the Newford novels)
49. Lord Dunsany (King of Elflands Daughter)
50. TS White (The Once and Future King)
51. Jeff Vandermeer (City of Saints and Madmen, Veniss Underground)
52. M. John Harrison (Viriconium series, Light)
53. K. J. Bishop (The Ethched City)
54. Greg Keyes (Kingdom of Thorn and Bone, and Newton's Cannon)
55. Matthew Rossi (Things that Never Were)
56. JK Rowling (Harry Potter)
57. S. Morgensten (The Princess Bride)
58. Peter S. Beagle (The Last Unicorn)
59. Paul di Fillipo (Cities (w/Moorcock, Mieville, etc), Steampunk series
60 John C. Wright (Golden Transcendace, Phoenix Exultant, Last Guardian of Everness)
61. Richard Morgan (Altered Carbon, Broken Angels, Market Forces)
62. Sean Stewart (Perfect Circle)
63. Alan Moore (The Courtyard, Watchmen, Voice of the Fire)
64. Garth Nix- (Keys to the Kingdom)
65. John Crowley (Little Big, The Deep)

This list is more focused on fantasy that Sci-fi (my Sci-fi list you already saw in a previous post just use that and throw in some other's like Greg Bear and Sagan, Gibson, as I said i'm not quite the sci-fan I am a fantasy fan) Note other obvious reads like Brooks, Lackey, Eddings, Piers Anthony, Goodkind, Salvatore, Kemp, Jordan, Modesti, Haydon, Cornwell, etc are not listed as this list was made to be a list of what I really enjoyed most.

Also I have some classics by Frank Baum, and JM Barrie etc

Yet to be read and greatly anticipated: Erikson, Hamilton & Kay

Erikson is great IMHO, in my mind regarding current epic fantasy (although he doesn have a sword/sorcery element in his seres) he is on a tier jsut belwo Martin.

Hamilton's Night's Dawn trilogy is just one of the best sapce opera's I have read. Later this year he has a novel entiteld Judas Unleashed being released

I like Kay a lot, which says a lot being that I am a huge Tolkien fan, I also liked his last effort The Last Light of the Sun, althoguh not as much as some people have apparently.

Ainulindale it would be rather time consuming to list the works I have read. This was just a list of my fav series at that time. I think the first Sci Fi I ever read were excepts of Tunnel in the Sky and Podkayne of Mars in Boy's Life magazine in the mid sixties. Some of the first real Sci Fi (and a few are outdated and disproven) I read were such classics as Stewart's Earth Abides, On the Beach, Lieber's The Wanderer, Pohl's Jem, the outstanding A Canticle for Liebowitz and Delany's Bable-17. A couple of lesser known gems are Herbert's Whipping Star, Rothman's The World is Round and the very technical Dragon's Egg by R. L. Forward.

Liked a couple of the "Adept" books by Anthony have always been told that I should read the Discworld books. For a body of work we prob shouldn't leave out Ms. Norton either her Witch World books and Beastmaster are rather good. Luficer's Hammer and Brin and Bedford's Heart of the Comet are outstanding efforts as well. While I enjoyed Moving Mars Bear's style is a bit overbaring for me...The last fantasy that caught my attention was The Dragon Waiting by John M. Ford and I'm starting Gardens of the Moon by Erikson and am halfway through Tigana. I read rave reviews of Keyes on the ASOIAF board...

On The Beach, Danlo? One of the best stories I've ever read, but not really sci-fi, is it?

Liked a couple of the "Adept" books by Anthony have always been told that I should read the Discworld books.

I have noticed Anthony is the name that many people bring up to correlate with Pratchett. The Adept series was bearable IMHO, I really cannot stand his Xanth work which is a series that I often see mentioned when discussing Pratchett's Discword. I simply don't see it myself, I think Discword is infinitely better written than Xanth, but again I'm slightly biased I have never ben a big fan of Anthony and I count Xanth as a series that could go into my defintely not like list. In all honesty I have never been a huge fan of Anthony.

The last fantasy that caught my attention was The Dragon Waiting by John M. Ford

I guess their is different degrees of catching attention, I have to admit I felt Susanna Clark's Jonathan Strange and Mr. Norrell was quite impressive. I haven't had a hard time finding good novels to read, as long as I've looked outside of the epic and sword/sorcery branches which are just really full of derivitive nonesense IMHO as of late outside of perhaps a half dozen authors.

I read rave reviews of Keyes on the ASOIAF board...

I liked Briar King, and The Kingdom of Thorne an Bone series is shaping up to be a good series, no doubt about that, but I don't share the opinions of people who put it in the category of Martin or Bakker among current superior epic series, which isn't a knock I still enjoy it, but I have always been one of the many who consider it Martin-lite. All in all I like Keyes as an author, I enjoyed his Age of Unreason novels, quite a bit.