Should probably go back and read last few chapters of Chronicles 2, but I can't recall if there was anything there which identified who the creator actually was. The reason I speculate is because of the ochre robe: its nagged at me a bit.....I really must get a life!
I posted earlier in this thread that the haruchai are also clothed in ochre and wondered if there was any connection between the two; has there been anything that catagorically would rule this out?
Like the Mahdoubt, there appears to be some deliberation in the choice of desciptions of clothing. But whilst it might appear to be minutae the connection I made when reading this in the thread was, Haruchai - Guardian of the Tree - Creator.
Probably complete lunacy...but what if?
The Creator's Non-Appearance
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CovenantJr
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lurch
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Concerning the creator
...It occurs to me that there is a possibilty that the absense of the Creator is intentional. This new Land is Creator-less. Much like the modern era of mankind is by some considered , Godless...The Creator is only of myth and stories. His actuality is not. He is non sequitor. He is Feckless. The Creator died of gingivitus at Jefferson County medical center at 3:47 a.m. March 27th 1989.....No known survivors. ...............MEL
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ur-bane
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Lurch, I think that most of us will agree that the absence of the Creator is intentional. 
At the same time, I think Jefferson County medical center records are flawed.
But I like the correlation between the Creatorless/Godless perception. The Land has become what its inhabitants have made it.
At the same time, I think Jefferson County medical center records are flawed.
But I like the correlation between the Creatorless/Godless perception. The Land has become what its inhabitants have made it.
Nearly all men can stand adversity, but if you want
to test a man's character, give him power.
--Abraham Lincoln
Excerpt from Animal Songs Never Written
"Hey, dad," croaked the vulture, "what are you eating?"
"Carrion, my wayward son."
"Will there be pieces when you are done?"
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NightBlaze
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Actually, I just re-read Lord Fouls Bane, and Mhoram tells TC that if the creator were to reach down to help the land, the world would be destroyed and Foul would be unloosed upon the universe again. Something to that effect. I dont think Foul would be destroyed by that. If you go back and read the part where Tamarantha tells the story of the creator, thats where I picked that up. Also, at the end of The Power That Preserves, the creator tells TC basically the same thing.
¥ NightBlaze ¥
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ur-bane
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Ahh, NightBlaze...I think you misunderstood us.
The Creator appeared to Covenant in LFB before his first summonsing, and also to Linden in TWL before her summonsing.
The Non-appearance is referencing the fact that the Creator did not appear (to our knowledge) to any of those summoned from our world.
We are not saying that he would appear in the Land, since, as you pointed out, that would result in the destruction of the Arch.
The Creator appeared to Covenant in LFB before his first summonsing, and also to Linden in TWL before her summonsing.
The Non-appearance is referencing the fact that the Creator did not appear (to our knowledge) to any of those summoned from our world.
We are not saying that he would appear in the Land, since, as you pointed out, that would result in the destruction of the Arch.
Nearly all men can stand adversity, but if you want
to test a man's character, give him power.
--Abraham Lincoln
Excerpt from Animal Songs Never Written
"Hey, dad," croaked the vulture, "what are you eating?"
"Carrion, my wayward son."
"Will there be pieces when you are done?"
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aTOMiC
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I didn't read every post in this thread but I am led to believe that there is a possibility that in spite of his terrible crimes, Roger Covenant may in fact be the Creator's chosen activist, though Roger himself may have disregarded the notion out of hand. It may be revealed later in the story that Roger was visited by the "Old Man" but his connection to Foul may have made the visitation irrelevant to him at the time. Roger Covenant may be a character reclamation project just like his father or Angus or any other despicable, hated character that has been transformed during the course of a story. IMHO
"If you can't tell the difference, what difference does it make?"
"There is tic and toc in atomic" - Neil Peart
see...i KNEW the Creator was lurking all along and it would only be a matter of time before he turned up!! 
you're more advanced than a cockroach,
have you ever tried explaining yourself
to one of them?
~ alan bates, the mothman prophecies
i've had this with actors before, on the set,
where they get upset about the [size of my]
trailer, and i'm always like...take my trailer,
cause... i'm from Kentucky
and that's not what we brag about.
~ george clooney, inside the actor's studio
a straight edge for legends at
the fold - searching for our
lost cities of gold. burnt tar,
gravel pits. sixteen gears switch.
Haphazard Lucy strolls by.
~ dennis r wood ~
have you ever tried explaining yourself
to one of them?
~ alan bates, the mothman prophecies
i've had this with actors before, on the set,
where they get upset about the [size of my]
trailer, and i'm always like...take my trailer,
cause... i'm from Kentucky
and that's not what we brag about.
~ george clooney, inside the actor's studio
a straight edge for legends at
the fold - searching for our
lost cities of gold. burnt tar,
gravel pits. sixteen gears switch.
Haphazard Lucy strolls by.
~ dennis r wood ~
Well, the fundamental point is that the Creator is likely unwilling to appear to anyone more than once. As he says at the end of TPTP, even appearing to Covenant once, in LFB, was risky enough - he must absolutely avoid making the chosen into his tools, because otherwise they would be powerless to stop Foul. So he must limit his contact with them to the absolute minimum. Given that, by the end of the TPTP, Covenant was pretty much sure that the man in ocher robe was the Creator of the Land (since the Creator pretty much confirmed it himself), had he chosen to appear to Covenant again in the SC, Covenant would undoubtly have listened to him, perhaps questioned him, and maybe asked for some sort of advice - thus becoming the Creator's tool. By the same token, by the end of the SC, Linden knew the man in ocher robe was the Creator, and so he could no longer appear to her, either, without making her his tool. Thus, if he has appeared, he must have appeared to one of the other characters; from this point of view, his absence in Runes is obvious, given that most of Runes is from Linden's POV.
But of course, there's also the distinct possibility that, given that the barriers between the worlds have weakened to a great extent, the Creator simply does not dare show himself for fear of unwittingly touching the Arch of Time and destroying the Land's world. Here's an interesting thought: what would have happened if the Creator had shown himself and Foul - through Roger - had attempted to summon him to the Land?
But of course, there's also the distinct possibility that, given that the barriers between the worlds have weakened to a great extent, the Creator simply does not dare show himself for fear of unwittingly touching the Arch of Time and destroying the Land's world. Here's an interesting thought: what would have happened if the Creator had shown himself and Foul - through Roger - had attempted to summon him to the Land?
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wayfriend
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Here's my new theory.
The Creator does not just "appear" or "turn up".
He tests.
Compare the resolution of each Chronicles with the actions of the Creator at the beginning of each, and I think there's a stong suggestion of a correspondence.
Linden was tested by the old man by having a cardiac arrest and by being extremely repulsive. He was testing Linden's capacity for healing against her revulsion against rot and unhealth. Which is exactly the capacity she needed to resolve the second Chronicles.
Covenant was tested by the old man as well. He was testing if Covenant retained any compassion for his fellow man. And he was testing if that compassion could still be touched by the simple fact of being in need. Again, this is exactly the capacity that Covenant needed to resolve the First Chronicles.
I'm not saying that each of the Chronicles was resolved by applying only a single aspect of each protagonists' character. Obviously, multiple capacities were required. But the Creator must have observed that at least one of those capacities was in question for Covenant or Linden. Or that one of them needed to be be reinforced before that person was chosen.
Which brings us back to the question of the significance of the Creator's appearance, or lack of appearance.
The Creator may not appear if he feels that there is no need to test the person he has chosen. Or it may mean that he dare not test them due to some circumstance.
Donaldson hints that the no-show is somehow related to broken laws. However, we also know that Donaldson can be a real bas**** when he gives us these hints. Remember that he seeks always to mislead you. Indeed!
Is it possible that the existance of the Land's Earth is so precarious and fragile that the Creator dare not even test his choices for fear of some dire consequence? Or has his empathy for his creation rendered him unable to?
The Creator does not just "appear" or "turn up".
He tests.
Compare the resolution of each Chronicles with the actions of the Creator at the beginning of each, and I think there's a stong suggestion of a correspondence.
Linden was tested by the old man by having a cardiac arrest and by being extremely repulsive. He was testing Linden's capacity for healing against her revulsion against rot and unhealth. Which is exactly the capacity she needed to resolve the second Chronicles.
Covenant was tested by the old man as well. He was testing if Covenant retained any compassion for his fellow man. And he was testing if that compassion could still be touched by the simple fact of being in need. Again, this is exactly the capacity that Covenant needed to resolve the First Chronicles.
I'm not saying that each of the Chronicles was resolved by applying only a single aspect of each protagonists' character. Obviously, multiple capacities were required. But the Creator must have observed that at least one of those capacities was in question for Covenant or Linden. Or that one of them needed to be be reinforced before that person was chosen.
Which brings us back to the question of the significance of the Creator's appearance, or lack of appearance.
The Creator may not appear if he feels that there is no need to test the person he has chosen. Or it may mean that he dare not test them due to some circumstance.
Donaldson hints that the no-show is somehow related to broken laws. However, we also know that Donaldson can be a real bas**** when he gives us these hints. Remember that he seeks always to mislead you. Indeed!
Is it possible that the existance of the Land's Earth is so precarious and fragile that the Creator dare not even test his choices for fear of some dire consequence? Or has his empathy for his creation rendered him unable to?
.
I can think of several plausible reasons for the Creator not to turn up, but here is a new one:
The Creator thinks the Land is doomed. He cannot appear and tell someone that they need not fail, because he would be lying. At this point everything the Creator can do is to prepare for damage mitigation after the Arch is broken and possibly break the Arch himself if things get really bad inside.
The Creator thinks the Land is doomed. He cannot appear and tell someone that they need not fail, because he would be lying. At this point everything the Creator can do is to prepare for damage mitigation after the Arch is broken and possibly break the Arch himself if things get really bad inside.
It would be interesting to find out whether the Creator ever tested other people as well... For example, when he was looking for someoneto go to the Land the first time, did he just try with Covenant or did he also test other people before him? For what's worth, does the Creator only appear around Covenant's town or can he appear everywhere he wants? Similarly, when he tested Linden, was she the first and only one he tested?dlbpharmd wrote:Excellent points about the Creator testing his choices, WF.
This stems from the question: does the Creator already know who has the necessary abilities and mindset to heal his creation? And if so - if he knew all along that Linden was perfect to heal the Land from the Sunbane, for example - why did he test her? Only to give her the classical "Be true" warning?
An argument for the Creator having appeared to a non-Linden person would be that the Creator has to surprise Foul. Lord Foul makes maximally foolproof plans using the information he has available, including what he knows about Linden and Covenant's personalities and abiliities. Even though his information isn't 100% complete, it's still good enough to make him extremely likely to succeed if the basic assumptions of the game aren't altered in some unforeseen manner, such as the addition of Linden in the Second Chronicles.
And that's why I think a third person might be involved. If we think about it, there was only one person who wasn't clearly brought to the place of summoning by Lord Foul's intention. That person is Barton Lytton. Earlier when he talked with Linden he was sure that Roger wouldn't go to Haven Farm but instead flee out of the town. Then Lytton appeared with his men on the farm anyway and got shot inside the lightning circle, which I think can be compared to the blood triangle in the Second Chronicles in separating the area of the summoning. I've been saying that I suspect Lytton is somewhere in the Land now...
And that's why I think a third person might be involved. If we think about it, there was only one person who wasn't clearly brought to the place of summoning by Lord Foul's intention. That person is Barton Lytton. Earlier when he talked with Linden he was sure that Roger wouldn't go to Haven Farm but instead flee out of the town. Then Lytton appeared with his men on the farm anyway and got shot inside the lightning circle, which I think can be compared to the blood triangle in the Second Chronicles in separating the area of the summoning. I've been saying that I suspect Lytton is somewhere in the Land now...
Well, Lytton might conceivably be a candidate - it seems the Creator chooses people who are "in between" Despite and goodness, and Lytton surely has his own share of despite, as shown in his behaviour towards Covenant and Joan. But Lytton seems also very stubborn and set in his ways, so, from an outside perspective, he seems more leaning towards despite than the Creator's side. Still, we don't know what's going on in his mind, so maybe he's completely different from the callous exterior 
However, I have a strong argument towards the fact that the Creator actually cannot appear to people more than once, if he wants them to be effective in the Land. And that argument stems from the fact that the Creator himself says so to Covenant at the end of TPTP. I don't have the books in front of me, but at some point during his return to the real world, Covenant tells the Creator "I wasn't free anyway... that girl who called me Berek, the little girl bitten by the rattler..." and the Creator answers, "no, I risked already too much meeting you once, I had no part in anything after that". He proceeds on to explain that if he had interfered further, he would have risked making Covenant his tool, and thereby ineffective. This must necessarily be even more true if the person he were to appear to already is leaning towards his side: if he had appeared to Covenant at the onset of the SC, undoubtly Covenant would have been very much receptive and in so doing, he would have become the Creator's tool because he would have given up free choice. By the same token, at the end of the SC Linden had eventually taken the side of the Creator; if he had appeared to her in Runes, she would have become his tool and thus effectless.
However, I have a strong argument towards the fact that the Creator actually cannot appear to people more than once, if he wants them to be effective in the Land. And that argument stems from the fact that the Creator himself says so to Covenant at the end of TPTP. I don't have the books in front of me, but at some point during his return to the real world, Covenant tells the Creator "I wasn't free anyway... that girl who called me Berek, the little girl bitten by the rattler..." and the Creator answers, "no, I risked already too much meeting you once, I had no part in anything after that". He proceeds on to explain that if he had interfered further, he would have risked making Covenant his tool, and thereby ineffective. This must necessarily be even more true if the person he were to appear to already is leaning towards his side: if he had appeared to Covenant at the onset of the SC, undoubtly Covenant would have been very much receptive and in so doing, he would have become the Creator's tool because he would have given up free choice. By the same token, at the end of the SC Linden had eventually taken the side of the Creator; if he had appeared to her in Runes, she would have become his tool and thus effectless.