Can someone explain TC's "bargain" to me?

[thewormoftheworld'send]

Who, by the way, is Covenant's bargain with? Himself? More likely, it is a bargain with his delusion. He thinks if he gives the delusion what it wants - a hero, a savior - then he will be released from his role and responsibility in the dream as Berek reborn.

[wayfriend]

Who, by the way, is Covenant's bargain with? Himself?

I would say so.

SleeplessOne, that was a good post.

I would add that, not only does TC not think that the Land is real, he also hasn't really absorbed the idea that Elena is his daugher. So I think it's a tad bit less "reprehensible" than you do.

But why could he not think Elena could take his place? I don't think there's enough to go on at that time for him to believe that only white gold can prevail. (We the reader, of course, suspect this, because TC is the protagonist.)

[SleeplessOne]

Great thread !
I was just re-reading this section of the Illearth War a couple of nights ago and was compelled to make a couple of comments.

TC's 'bargain' which springs 'fully-formed' into his mind straight after Elena's elsewhere-gaze comes frighteningly into focus, seems to me to be flawed from the get-go.

As far as I understand it, the bargain requires TC to become an active participant in his 'dream', a step up from his formerly passive stance.
His 'reward' for his participation is the removal of his head from the chopping block of Foul's machinations.

In a true TC paradox, his bargain is both incredibly cruel and cynical, and yet understandable given his circumstances.
The bargain dictates that he will install Elena, his (imaginary ?) daughter, as a proxy savior for the Land. He vows to encourage and aid her in any way possible, so that she might take his place as the hero/fool who would either defeat or fall victim to Foul.
It's not much of a bargain on a couple of levels.

Firstly, it is a truly reprehensible idea - in some ways. To set your own daughter up in order to wriggle off the hook of your responsibilities is pretty weak - but then again, TC truly doesn't believe at this stage that the Land is his responsibility - still, your own daughter ... also, as far as bargains go, he really isn't giving much of himself, hence his later attempts to make further recompense (shaving his beard etc ..)

Secondly, he's kidding himself if he thinks Elena could truly replace him as the pivot upon which the Land's fate revolves.
He recognises Elena's passion and potency and understands that this is exactly the kind of thing that Foul gleefully exploits. However, although Elena is powerful and more than likely capable of Desecration, she doesn't hold the White Gold. The cornerstone of Fouls plans is that he needs to obtain the White Gold so that he can break the Arch of Time and escape his imprisonment in the Land. Elena, though she may prove an entertaining diversion (and in fact, later on does become another lever for Foul to use against TC), simply cannot replace TC in Foul's grand scheme.

The last observation I wish to state is this : for all his intentions, TC's bargain doesn't really have much effect on proceedings.
I feel that Elena would have been only too glad to have taken on the role TC wished to proscribe her anyway. She wouldn't have needed too much encourgement - TC could most probably have openly told her of his bargain and she would have eagerly accepted the role imo ..
Also, TC recants his efforts on a couple of occasions, most obviously right as Elena is about to drink the Blood of the Earth - he flat-out tells her of his duplicity at this point.
Despite his worst intentions, a number of times he tries to sabotage his own bargain ..

I think that's half the answer. Covenant's bargain is understandable also in terms of his wanting the delusion to end, since that is his ultimate goal. What happens to his daughter, whom he feels at this point is an element of some delusion and not real, should according to his bargain be completely unimportant. However, by the end of TIW Covenant is feeling differently about Elena and the Land. His bargain seems cruel and reprehensible only in retrospect as Covenant learns to care more about the Land, whether or not it is a delusion.

It's important to understand not only this growing process, but that the "real" world looks very ugly to Covenant in comparison. This is made clear early on in LFB; when Trell heals the stoneware pot Covenant is already thinking to himself that this place, where people care about such things as stoneware pots, is too good to be a dream.

As for Elena being the appropriate proxy for the Land's savior, Covenant really didn't have much to choose from, the opportunity presented itself so he took what he was given. But I think there is one more important element here: there is an opportunity for Elena to redeem herself as a bastard child of rape, and therefore also to redeem her father. The natural instinct of the father is to want the child to make good and succeed, and to make him look good in the process. This is especially the case here since Elena is the product, not only of rape, but of guilt and pain.

heya Wormy, thanks for your thoughts/input; The Blood of the Earth section of TIW is one of my very fave parts of the entire Chronicles, so I'm always interested to hear the views and thoughts of others ..
The whole section is beautifully written; Covenant's guilt at his own deceptiveness is really well portrayed. The journey into Earthroot is one of the most magical, mystical things I've ever read; the descriptions of the 'sunless lake of Earthroot', the silent waterfall, the overwhelming smell of Earthpower, these things are vivid in my mind thanks to SRD's exceptional writing.

[SleeplessOne]

Who, by the way, is Covenant's bargain with? Himself?

I would say so.

SleeplessOne, that was a good post.

I would add that, not only does TC not think that the Land is real, he also hasn't really absorbed the idea that Elena is his daugher. So I think it's a tad bit less "reprehensible" than you do.

But why could he not think Elena could take his place? I don't think there's enough to go on at that time for him to believe that only white gold can prevail. (We the reader, of course, suspect this, because TC is the protagonist.)

thankyou Wayfriend, coming from yourself I can think of no higher praise

I hope my post didn't seemingly condemn TC too much, I can see his reasons pretty clearly, I've never really vilified TC as some have, his circumstances are so harsh and confronting that I find anyone that judges poorly to be a little unfair ..

But regarding his relationship with Elena, having just re-read the section I'd argue that he had at that point pretty much resolved his feelings toward Elena and accepted her as his Land-born daughter - and imaginary or not, there's little doubt that he loves her at the time his bargain is struck.
He knows he probably can't afford to love her, as this would allow his Delusion to seduce him further than it had previously.
But his feelings are pretty undeniable - and when one considers his previously impoverished emotional condition, it is pretty indicative of the pressure he is under that he still considers selling her out, despite what he has gained from their relationship (dysfunctional though it may seem to us outsiders, surely for someone who hasn't been loved for a very long time would consider his reciprocal love with Elena a step-up) ...

As I posted earlier though, his efforts are half-hearted at best, it's more the fact that he has the dark thoughts in his mind that tortures him - I mentioned that he spills his guts just as Elena is going to imbibe the Blood of the Earth - but he also seriously tries to disuade her from her path as they travel upon the sunless lake in the lil' echo-powered boat ..

BTW as to the question of the futility of TC substituting Elena for himself as Foul's target, I did intend to look over LFB and TIW to see whether TC had ascertained Foul's deeper purpose concerning the White Gold at the point where he strikes his bargain; I suspected he may simply not have been aware of Fouls yearning to break his imprisonment at that stage of the story.
So, good point WF.
We know it's probably 'bootless', but he might not have worked out just how uniquely suited he was to Foul's scheme at that point.

[thewormoftheworld'send]

Who, by the way, is Covenant's bargain with? Himself?

I would say so.

SleeplessOne, that was a good post.

I would add that, not only does TC not think that the Land is real, he also hasn't really absorbed the idea that Elena is his daugher. So I think it's a tad bit less "reprehensible" than you do.

But why could he not think Elena could take his place? I don't think there's enough to go on at that time for him to believe that only white gold can prevail. (We the reader, of course, suspect this, because TC is the protagonist.)

thankyou Wayfriend, coming from yourself I can think of no higher praise

I hope my post didn't seemingly condemn TC too much, I can see his reasons pretty clearly, I've never really vilified TC as some have, his circumstances are so harsh and confronting that I find anyone that judges poorly to be a little unfair ..

But regarding his relationship with Elena, having just re-read the section I'd argue that he had at that point pretty much resolved his feelings toward Elena and accepted her as his Land-born daughter - and imaginary or not, there's little doubt that he loves her at the time his bargain is struck.
He knows he probably can't afford to love her, as this would allow his Delusion to seduce him further than it had previously.
But his feelings are pretty undeniable - and when one considers his previously impoverished emotional condition, it is pretty indicative of the pressure he is under that he still considers selling her out, despite what he has gained from their relationship (dysfunctional though it may seem to us outsiders, surely for someone who hasn't been loved for a very long time would consider his reciprocal love with Elena a step-up) ...

As I posted earlier though, his efforts are half-hearted at best, it's more the fact that he has the dark thoughts in his mind that tortures him - I mentioned that he spills his guts just as Elena is going to imbibe the Blood of the Earth - but he also seriously tries to disuade her from her path as they travel upon the sunless lake in the lil' echo-powered boat ..

BTW as to the question of the futility of TC substituting Elena for himself as Foul's target, I did intend to look over LFB and TIW to see whether TC had ascertained Foul's deeper purpose concerning the White Gold at the point where he strikes his bargain; I suspected he may simply not have been aware of Fouls yearning to break his imprisonment at that stage of the story.
So, good point WF.
We know it's probably 'bootless', but he might not have worked out just how uniquely suited he was to Foul's scheme at that point.

Lord Foul? That's just the part of Covenant that hates lepers.

[wayfriend]

But regarding his relationship with Elena, having just re-read the section I'd argue that he had at that point pretty much resolved his feelings toward Elena and accepted her as his Land-born daughter - and imaginary or not, there's little doubt that he loves her at the time his bargain is struck.

On that I agree ... he's intellectually accepted his daughter. But the responses of a man who has had a 30-year-old daughter for a couple of weeks are not those of a man who has had a 30-year-old daughter for 30 years, right? I don't think he's incorporated it completely - I don't think anyone can incorporate it completely in those circumstances.

I can't claim credit for having this insight.

How could he possibly feel like her father? They haven't had one iota of a father-daughter relationship. And when he returns to the Land in "The Illearth War," he's actually younger than she is.

(11/18/2004)

So, while he certainly has recognized and accepted Elena as his daugher, I don't think it has had enough time for him to act like a real father instinctually. So he may not have felt any qualms against making her the focus of the Land's destiny. Maybe if someone had pointed out, hey, she's your daughter, he might have said, oh, wait, I didn't think about it that way.

[SleeplessOne]

But regarding his relationship with Elena, having just re-read the section I'd argue that he had at that point pretty much resolved his feelings toward Elena and accepted her as his Land-born daughter - and imaginary or not, there's little doubt that he loves her at the time his bargain is struck.

On that I agree ... he's intellectually accepted his daughter. But the responses of a man who has had a 30-year-old daughter for a couple of weeks are not those of a man who has had a 30-year-old daughter for 30 years, right? I don't think he's incorporated it completely - I don't think anyone can incorporate it completely in those circumstances.

I can't claim credit for having this insight.

How could he possibly feel like her father? They haven't had one iota of a father-daughter relationship. And when he returns to the Land in "The Illearth War," he's actually younger than she is.

(11/18/2004)

So, while he certainly has recognized and accepted Elena as his daugher, I don't think it has had enough time for him to act like a real father instinctually. So he may not have felt any qualms against making her the focus of the Land's destiny. Maybe if someone had pointed out, hey, she's your daughter, he might have said, oh, wait, I didn't think about it that way.

yes very true, TC and Elena's bond is freshly made, they certainly don't share the history and background of a 'proper' father and daughter that's for sure ..
but this is still someone he has developed a love for, and she too has fallen for him. For someone who hasn't experienced these essential emotions for so long, it goes to show just how desperate he was to elude the position he had been forced into ..

[jackgiantkiller]

You all havent discussed the way TC seals his bargin with Elenor. He has grown a beard in the land so that when he wakes up cleanshaven it will prove his experiences in the land arnt real, so to seal the bargin he allows Elenor to shave him so comprimising his unbelife. This is a consesion of grave concequence to TC he feels his unbelife is a fundermental part of his sanity, he risks a lot giving up not his unbelife but the significance of it to his sanity and health, in return he get Elenor to sholder responsability to not save the land but risk destroying it so letting him off the hook, he also agrees to help her in any way short of expressing power himself. This is why it ends so badly, he not only caused her fall and loss of the SOL but compremised the bloodguard by gettiing them to name the seventh ward and the breaking of the law of death. this allows great harm to come to the land and in the PTP, the full impact of this come home to him ultimitly making him accept responsability and the way to find the paradox of white gold and wild magic..... I think but let me read the chronicals again cos i might of got it all wrong, im sure i had it for a moment their but its slipping

[Rigel]

Personally, I can't blame TC for trying to bargain his way out of the Land.

I mean, he shows up, sees this world, decides to accept it and participate... and the very first thing he does when he realizes the nature of their hero-worship is to rape a 16yo girl.

No wonder he doesn't want to get involved. His fear of responsibility for the Land is just another form of his fear of power, which is magnified extremely throughout the 2nd Chrons as well, where TC also seeks to avoid making himself responsible (albiet in a much more proactive way).

[thewormoftheworld'send]

I've also uncovered this conversation between Covenant and Mhoram in TIW:

"Yet even this you must understand. He [the Creator] cannot touch you here, to teach or help you, for the same reason that he cannot help us. Nor can he touch or teach or help you in your own world. If he does, you will not be free. You will become his tool, and your presence will break the arch of Time, unbinding Despite. So you were chosen. The Creator believes that your uncoerced volition and strength will save us in the end. If he is wrong, he has put the weapon of his own destruction into Lord Foul's hands."
After a long silence, Covenant muttered, "A hell of a risk."
"Ah, but he is the Creator. How could he do otherwise?"
"He could burn the place down, and try again. But I guess you don't think gods are that humble. Or do you call it arrogance-to burn-?

[thewormoftheworld'send]

Is it the case that Covenant did not feel like Elena's father?

"Hellfire, Elena! I'm your father!"

"Hear me, Thomas Covenant. Triock Thuler-son of Mithil Stonedown is my true father-the parent of my heart..."

It would seem that the explanation Donaldson gave in the GI is precisely the opposite of the text he himself penned back in the 1970s: Covenant had more parental feelings for his daughter than his daughter had for her biological father.

This relationship has much to do with characterization and character arc. If Elena does not see Covenant as her "true father," then the reader can better understand how she could have sexual feelings for Covenant.

But more relevantly for the thread topic, if Covenant loves Elena like a daughter despite his expressed disavowal of the Land, then in the long run this, as jackgiantkiller pointed out, leads to Covenant's eventual solution to the paradox in TPTP.

The natural instinct of the father is to want the child to make good and succeed, and to make him look good in the process. This is especially the case here since Elena is the product, not only of rape, but of guilt and pain.

How could he possibly feel like her father? They haven't had one iota of a father-daughter relationship. And when he returns to the Land in "The Illearth War," he's actually younger than she is.

(11/18/2004)

How could Covenant possibly have such feelings for his daughter? I don't know, I just know that it's necessary to make the very ending of TPTP possible.

[edit - on the other hand, it is possible, from clues given in the text, that Covenant was lying about his feelings for his daughter.]

[thewormoftheworld'send]

This quote from TIW should settle a few questions here:

"Manipulation, Elena," he rasped. "I'm talking about manipulation. Do you understand what that means? It means using people. Twisting them to suit purposes they haven't chosen for themselves. Manipulation. Not Foul's-mine! I've been manipulating you, using you. I told you I'd made another bargain but I didn't tell you what it is. I've been using you to get myself off the hook. I promised myself that I would do everything I could to help you find this Ward. And in return I promised myself that I would do everything I could to make you take my responsibility. I watched you and helped you so that when you got here you would look exactly like that-so you would challenge Foul yourself without stopping to think about what you're doing--so that whatever happens to the Land would be your fault instead of mine. So that I could escape! Hell and blood, Elena! Do yon hear me? Foul is going to get us for sure!"
She seemed to hear only part of what he said. She bent her searing focus straight into him, and said, "Was there ever a time when you loved me?"
In an agony of protest, he half screamed, "Of course I loved you!" Then he mastered himself, put all his strength back into his appeal. "It never even occurred to me that I might be able to use you until until after the landslide. When I began to understand what you're capable of. I loved you before that. I love you now. I'm just an unconscionable bastard, and I used you, that's all. Now I regret it." With all the resources of his voice, he beseeched her, "Elena, please don't drink that stuff. Forget the Power of Command and go back to Revelstone. Let the Council decide what to do about all this."

[thewormoftheworld'send]

The last observation I wish to state is this : for all his intentions, TC's bargain doesn't really have much effect on proceedings.
I feel that Elena would have been only too glad to have taken on the role TC wished to proscribe her anyway.

This one almost slipped by me. Covenant's bargain doesn't really have much effect on proceedings? Who questioned Bannor on Rivenrock? Covenant. Who gave Elena enough clues to go on in finally ascertaining Amok's real name? Covenant. Who also bargained with himself that he would help Elena at every opportunity, including this one? Covenant.

Elena debated with Amok for 2 days straight without success until Covenant stepped in to fulfill his bargain at a crucial moment. Without Covenant's assistance the questors would never have attained Earthroot, but would have returned to Revelstone empty-handed.

[peter]

ok, then i have this question:

at the end of LFB...

"“Suddenly a desperate chance blazed in his eyes. He spun, gripped Covenant with his gaze, whispered, “There is a way! Prothall strives to call the Fire-Lions. He cannot succeed-the power of the staff is closed, and we have not the knowledge to unlock it. But white gold can release that. It can be done!”
Covenant recoiled as if Mhoram had betrayed him. No! he panted. I made a bargain-!

If this is referring to his bargain with the ranyhyn (to not ride them) then i dont undestand the connection between calling the fire lions and TC promising not to ride the ranyhyn.

My feeling is that TC's 'bargain's' are multilayered within his mind and encompass the ranyhon bargain, the Lena bargain, the I won't be a hero bargain etc. But his overall bargain that encompasses them all, and the one he was refering to here, is with the old man/creator who drew him into the whole mess in the first place and it goes something like this. "Ok - I'll go forward with this, I won't kill myself to escape it or refuse to go where these people want me to - but I will NOT be drawn into taking an active roll in it. I will see it through to the end, where ever that is, but I will NOT be yours or anyones tool. If you cannot accept that then forget the whole thing!"

[thewormoftheworld'send]

ok, then i have this question:

at the end of LFB...

"“Suddenly a desperate chance blazed in his eyes. He spun, gripped Covenant with his gaze, whispered, “There is a way! Prothall strives to call the Fire-Lions. He cannot succeed-the power of the staff is closed, and we have not the knowledge to unlock it. But white gold can release that. It can be done!”
Covenant recoiled as if Mhoram had betrayed him. No! he panted. I made a bargain-!

If this is referring to his bargain with the ranyhyn (to not ride them) then i dont undestand the connection between calling the fire lions and TC promising not to ride the ranyhyn.

My feeling is that TC's 'bargain's' are multilayered within his mind and encompass the ranyhon bargain, the Lena bargain, the I won't be a hero bargain etc.

Covenant's bargain with the Ranyhyn revolved around evading responsibility for his ring:

"Listen-listen. If I need you, you had better come. So that I don't have to be a hero. Get it right."

So yes the assertion that he doesn't want to be a hero would cover a lot of ground.

But his overall bargain that encompasses them all, and the one he was refering to here, is with the old man/creator who drew him into the whole mess in the first place and it goes something like this. "Ok - I'll go forward with this, I won't kill myself to escape it or refuse to go where these people want me to - but I will NOT be drawn into taking an active roll in it. I will see it through to the end, where ever that is, but I will NOT be yours or anyones tool. If you cannot accept that then forget the whole thing!"

Actually, Covenant had made a decision to kill himself in the catacombs beneath Mt. Thunder.

[thewormoftheworld'send]

And as wayfriend pointed out above in this thread, Covenant's bargain with the Ranyhyn also involved his disgust at killing Cavewights at Soaring Woodhelven.

However, Covenant is not consistent in applying this rule. He spoke out against more and more killing in TIW, but in the 'catacombs' section towards the end of LFB he asked why the Lords didn't kill all the ur-viles but let some of them escape.

[Vader]

Just a random thought (and I am sure it has been said here before but I'm too lazy to go through all of it)

Drug abusers - and especially alcoholics - tend to make bargains. A lot of them try to bargain with G-d (If YOU let me survive this, I'll promise to do that ...)

[thewormoftheworld'send]

Just a random thought (and I am sure it has been said here before but I'm too lazy to go through all of it)

Drug abusers - and especially alcoholics - tend to make bargains. A lot of them try to bargain with G-d (If YOU let me survive this, I'll promise to do that ...)

Bargaining is the third stage of the dying process. Anger, denial, bargaining, depression, acceptance.

[peter]

Actually, Covenant had made a decision to kill himself in the catacombs beneath Mt. Thunder.

Actually I think the 'bargain' thing has been problematic to many readers (it has come up for discussion on the Watch certainly at some point in the last 12 months) but there is a tendancy just to 'weather through it' rather than analyse it too deeply when reading the Chrons. It is only whenI think about it in circumstances like these that I try to unravel what it is all about.
Re the point that TC had already decided to kill himself under Mt Thunder - I don't remember such a decision myself (but then it is many moons since I read LFB) - but if indeed it is the case I cannot see the point of his refering to the bargain later on the slopes of Mt Thunder after he had 'bottled out' or whatever, since by that time any bargains prior to this decision would be null and void.

[thewormoftheworld'send]

Actually, Covenant had made a decision to kill himself in the catacombs beneath Mt. Thunder.

Actually I think the 'bargain' thing has been problematic to many readers (it has come up for discussion on the Watch certainly at some point in the last 12 months) but there is a tendancy just to 'weather through it' rather than analyse it too deeply when reading the Chrons. It is only whenI think about it in circumstances like these that I try to unravel what it is all about.
Re the point that TC had already decided to kill himself under Mt Thunder - I don't remember such a decision myself (but then it is many moons since I read LFB) - but if indeed it is the case I cannot see the point of his refering to the bargain later on the slopes of Mt Thunder after he had 'bottled out' or whatever, since by that time any bargains prior to this decision would be null and void.

Covenant tried to kill himself on the Word of Warning that guarded the Second Ward. Instead of being killed, his wild magic protected him, and the Word was vanquished. Mhoram (I think) told Covenant he had mastered a great power but instead of bragging about his accomplishment he honestly admitted he was only trying to kill himself.

On the slopes of Mount Thunder Covenant was willing to call the Ranyhyn because his bargain with them required that they always obey his summons for the express purpose of taking away from him the responsibility of using wild magic. But using wild magic to summon the fire-lions went against this bargain.

I also think this reference to the bargain was obscure and that it goes over most readers' heads, that's one reason Kevin's Watch is here: to explain these things rather than being just another kowtowing fansite.