Kevin's Watch

You know, I almost deleted that post.
You don't know me; you don't know my wife. For me to take offense at the comment in the first place was, well, ridiculous. My apologies.
I still stand firm that I strongly dislike labels and generalizations, but to take personal offense at a comment made on an impersonal internet discussion forum.....pah! What was I thinking? My apologies, Malik. You too, Esmer, even though I expressed my apologies in another thread, I express them here as well.

Syl wrote:Well, you'd have to read the legalization thread in the Close for my stance on cocaine, but sure, why not. Like pride, I think drugs are only a liability when taken to excess. You could easily substitute cocaine with money, sex, donuts, and so forth. Now, if you only do something because you're addicted to cocaine, well, you're a junkie. Only for money and you're greedy (or a Republican *rimshot*). Sex, and you're a whore. Donuts, and you're Homer Simpson. *shrug*

Can we agree, then, that something which motivates a person isn't a good thing or a bad thing just because it does so? It suffices for me.

And by phrasing it in those terms, are you saying you're a better person than others for being motivated the way you are? Isn't that in itself a form of pride?

Well, I never claimed to be pride free. In fact, I am full of it. (As they say ) All I ever said about myself was, when things are all jammed up, by recognizing when my pride is a factor, and remembering that pride is a deadly sin, and acting accordingly -- things have worked out better.

Avatar wrote:"Confidence leaves room for improvement, Vanity doesn't."

I like it.

How about "Pride goeth before a fall". (Actually "Pride will have a fall; For pride goeth before and shame cometh after".)

Then there's "Pride sullies the noblest character. " -- Claudianius

"In general, pride is at the bottom of all great mistakes." -- John Ruskin

"Pride makes us artificial and humility makes us real" -- Thomas Merton

"When pride comes, then comes disgrace, but with humility comes wisdom" -- Bible

"Pride attaches undue importance to the superiority of one's status in the eyes of others; And shame is fear of humiliation at one's inferior status in the estimation of others. When one sets his heart on being highly esteemed, and achieves such rating, then he is automatically involved in fear of losing his status." -- Lao Tzu

Perhaps I should feel comforted that people are so concerned about their behavior that they argue this passionately about pride. But for some reason, I'm not comforted. Wouldn't a person of less pride argue with less vigor? Wouldn't he at some point say, "Well, maybe you guys are right"?? Wayfriend, I don't think it gets you off the hook to admit that you are not perfect, that you are not free of that which you abhor (pride). It's almost as if your position is one that by definition CAN'T be defended indefinitely, because the very act of your emphatic, continued insistance resounds with that which you disdain. It seems your pride is invested in your own argument.

So if pride is something that cannot be sustainably denounced without invoking pride, then perhap the original position was less than tenable in the first place? It seems like one big contradiction to me.

I don't worry about it. But then, I'm admittedly a proud person.

Wayfriend wrote: I think it's been clear from the beginning that this side of the argument is 'gotten' by the majority, if not everyone; but I hope someone gets the other side (even if they don't agree).

I was raised being hit over the head with the "All Pride is Bad!" argument. Believe me, I get it. I heard through 12 years of Bible School, and for several more in my own head, as I continually crippled my own progress (in both Art and life!) by being ashamed about how I felt when I accomplished something.

For years, any sign that I might be different was interpreted as the "sin" of Pride.

Any sign that I might accomplish something not listed as an "appropriate" career, or any sign that I might consider myself as something other than an insignificant part of the Body of Christ was taught to be Pride.

Any sign of enjoyment in accomplishment of my own or of one of my peers was Pride.

Any spark of individuality was Pride.

Any spark of rebellion was Pride.

You'd like it there, I'm sure. I've never seen so many people scared and humiliated into conformity since leaving, but at least they didn't have anything to be proud of!

Syl wrote:I'm a slacker by nature. I usually do just enough that I'm doing just enough more than just enough .

Man, do I hear that.

See, Plissken's example is one that really speaks to me. (Not that I ever experienced anything like that, for which I'm profoundly grateful.) It's that whole "sin" thing.

Too much of anything can be bad for you, but a little can be good for you, or at least not harm you.

I do think that WayFriend has a point about those rebuttals being examples of behaviour which could be caused by pride, and certainly by excess thereof. And pride is a very slippery slope. Very slippery indeed.

It opens up all sorts of questions about deciding how much is too much. But pride is a very catch-all sort of phrase. The parent who over-inflates their childs pride might end up with the sort of kid who believes that the world owes him a living. But would you accuse that child of excessive pride?

As with so many things, a balance must be struck. I don't see anything wrong with being proud of an ability say, as long as that doesn't make you denigrate people who have less ability. A fine line on a slippery slope. Excessive humilty can be a bad thing too. (I'm sure everybody knows somebody who they wish would just have an opinion, or whatever.)

I certainly agree that it's very very easy to overdo it, but that doesn't make it wrong. It's easy to have a few drinks too many too, and that's often bad for you, and can lead you into "dangerous" situations, but does that mean drinking is wrong? (Oh boy, analogies are dangerous. ) Same applies to a lot of things, I think.

--A

Again, Av...well said.

Avatar wrote:As with so many things, a balance must be struck. I don't see anything wrong with being proud of an ability say, as long as that doesn't make you denigrate people who have less ability.

I think this is a very important factor. Pride in an ability is a good thing. That pride generates quality. But then denigrating people with lesser (or different) abilities is where a problem can occur.

I am in agreement that balance is the key. One needs to take pride in oneself, but also needs to extend that by taking pride in others. As long as the self recognizes the other selves as equally important, pride is healthy.

Aah, but therein lies the great problem with humanity: The understanding that other selves, regardless of difference in whatever, appearance, ability, skill, etc. are equally worthy.

It's hard as hell to recognise that the dumb guy over there, who seems never to have had an original thought in his life, is in any way worthy, let alone equally worthy.

Of course, he thinks pretty much the same about you. Are either of you right? And what is "worth" anyway? Difficult ones...

--A

Moderation, moderation, moderation, moderation...

(After awhile, it starts to sound like special food for Av! Mod-R-Ration!)

Plissken wrote:I was raised being hit over the head with the "All Pride is Bad!" argument. I heard through 12 years of Bible School [...] You'd like it there, I'm sure.

Ouch. Personal attack.

Malik23 wrote:Wayfriend, I don't think it gets you off the hook to admit that you are not perfect, that you are not free of that which you abhor (pride). It's almost as if your position is one that by definition CAN'T be defended indefinitely, because the very act of your emphatic, continued insistance resounds with that which you disdain. It seems your pride is invested in your own argument.

Ouch again. (Is my contribution to a discussion more suspect than anyone elses?)

I think I will leave this thread now.

Wayfriend, it wasn't a personal attack, but rather a critique of the style of your argument and the tenability of such a position. No need to leave. I wasn't trying to be judgemental.

Sorry, Wayfriend. Though I disagree with your point of view, I'm glad you presented it. I'll lock the thread for a day as a precautionary step and as a reminder that we should be careful with our wording.

Granted, I don't think Malik's comment rose to the level of attack, but I can see how someone would be insulted over Plissken's (even if I'm not sure he meant it entirely that way).

Second thought, I'm not going to lock it, as I think there's still a little more to gain out of the thread, but be careful, guys.

Yeah, let's all be pals.

Plissken wrote:Moderation, moderation, moderation, moderation...

(After awhile, it starts to sound like special food for Av! Mod-R-Ration!)

aaaaahhh, The Golden Rule! or Golden Mean, whichever you prefer. good one. one size fits all!

Wayfriend wrote:(Is my contribution to a discussion more suspect than anyone elses?)

hhhhhhmmmm....thinking.....thinking.....(The Esmer feels for you, my wayfriend. )

Ouch again. (Is my contribution to a discussion more suspect than anyone elses?) I think I will leave this thread now.

"Ouch?" Just what is it that hurts? Could it be . . . your pride?

Actually, given the argument I made against you (the untenability of arguing against pride), I suppose bowing out of the debate is actually a very clever move. It sufficiently meets my criticism. Bravo, Wayfriend. I see your strategy.

But then, doesn't that just prove my point, that one cannot sustain an emphatic defense of this position without at the same time undermining it? To be fair, I suppose that doesn't mean pride is good, so I haven't proven the counterpoint.

On the other hand, if bowing out is a kind of strategy, then isn't Wayfriend still arguing for his position by his very absence? Doesn't that strategic move imply a kind of pride in proving this point?

God, I'm such a jerk. Even when he's gone, I won't let it go.

Wayfriend wrote:

Plissken wrote:I was raised being hit over the head with the "All Pride is Bad!" argument. I heard through 12 years of Bible School [...] You'd like it there, I'm sure.

Ouch. Personal attack.

Well, no it wasn't, actually - it was an illustration of the point that I was originally making about the subversive nature of healthy pride. The fact that you would find being lumped in with a group of people who agree with (and do their best to live by) your argument insulting is rather telling, don't you think?

The point is this: The proponents of all Pride being a sin are usually those who find that conformity makes the masses easier to rule.