Mohandas Karamachand Gandhi, one of the most influential figures in modern social and political activism, considered these traits to be the most spiritually perilous to humanity.
Wealth without Work
Pleasure without Conscience
Science without Humanity
Knowledge without Character
Politics without Principle
Commerce without Morality
Worship without Sacrifice
These are in comparison to the"traditional" sins of pride, envy, gluttony, lust, anger, greed, and sloth.
I find more meaning in Ghandi's version. Politics without Principle and Commerce without Morality could be applied to many situations ripped right from today's headlines...
I don't know. Remembering that Pride is one of the Big Seven has guided me well through more ethically sticky situations than I care to count. Any list without Pride doesn't seem right to me - sometimes I feel it's the one we most need reminding of.
Wayfriend wrote:I don't know. Remembering that Pride is one of the Big Seven has guided me well through more ethically sticky situations than I care to count. Any list without Pride doesn't seem right to me - sometimes I feel it's the one we most need reminding of.
Ditto, and I'm in no way religious. I like the message here, but I've always believed that pride is humanity's biggest failing, as we indulge in it far too readily, for all the wrong reasons.
"We probably could have saved ourselves, but we were too damned lazy to try very hard... and too damn cheap." - Kurt Vonnegut
"Now if you remember all great paintings have an element of tragedy to them. Uh, for instance if you remember from last week, the unicorn was stuck on the aircraft carrier and couldn't get off. That was very sad. " - Kids in the Hall
Wayfriend and Alynna were definitely referring to the former, Esmer.
If all pride were healthy, it wouldn't bear mentioning.
Nearly all men can stand adversity, but if you want to test a man's character, give him power.
--Abraham Lincoln
Excerpt fromAnimal Songs Never Written
"Hey, dad," croaked the vulture, "what are you eating?"
"Carrion, my wayward son."
"Will there be pieces when you are done?"
ur-bane wrote:If all pride were healthy, it wouldn't bear mentioning.
DAM good quote!
you, my friend, have just expertly "skewered" me with the "obvious"...DOH!...it hurts so goood!
(Alynna did "sneak" that post in on me, I was responding to wayfriend and she popped out of a ceasure in front of me haha)
CovenantJr wrote: I don't consider pride itself a failing; it's a surfeit of pride that's the issue.
Then you and I have parted ways. For I consider Pride, itself, without exemptions or excuses, a Deadly Sin, and not a failing. Indeed, the bit where it convinces you it's sometimes okay is what makes it a Deadly Sin and not just a failing - it's a lier and a cheat and a conman, and it needs to be exterminated with extreme prejudice when detected in oneself.
So you can't take pride in a job well done? You can't take pride in your kids? No pride in your appearance, your country, your team, nothing? I think you're going to part ways with a lot of people, Wayfriend. Without pride, what motivation do you have other than fear to be anything other than average?
Unless you dodge it by calling pride something else, like self-respect, personal satisfaction, etc. There's a reason for other words like hubris.
"It is not the literal past that rules us, save, possibly, in a biological sense. It is images of the past. Each new historical era mirrors itself in the picture and active mythology of its past or of a past borrowed from other cultures. It tests its sense of identity, of regress or new achievement against that past.”
-George Steiner
I lean more toward Wayfriend's interpretation myself, though not quite to that extreme. Maybe what I'm advocating is a lot of humility to go along with those brief flashes of pride. The thing with pride is that it builds upon itself, and if people reined in their egos more, we'd all be better off. Pride swells your head, makes you overconfident, and leads to mistakes. I've seen it happen, I've seen it negate my own work, and it makes me angry that people get so full of minor accomplishments that they won't stop and think about how to do the right thing.
Yeha, that was a bit of a rant. Anyway: humility and objectivity are my answers to pride.
Your teacher lied. You're not special.
"We probably could have saved ourselves, but we were too damned lazy to try very hard... and too damn cheap." - Kurt Vonnegut
"Now if you remember all great paintings have an element of tragedy to them. Uh, for instance if you remember from last week, the unicorn was stuck on the aircraft carrier and couldn't get off. That was very sad. " - Kids in the Hall
CovenantJr wrote: I don't consider pride itself a failing; it's a surfeit of pride that's the issue.
Then you and I have parted ways. For I consider Pride, itself, without exemptions or excuses, a Deadly Sin, and not a failing. Indeed, the bit where it convinces you it's sometimes okay is what makes it a Deadly Sin and not just a failing - it's a lier and a cheat and a conman, and it needs to be exterminated with extreme prejudice when detected in oneself.
Can't Pride be considered part of Knowledge and Character? Isn't "proper" character free from "selfish" pride?
With respect, I disagree. Excessive pride, as with any excess, is a dangerous thing. However, pride in ones conduct and demeanor on a personal level leads to honorable behavior, and on an external level it leads to compassion.
Pride is what teaches a person to value excellent work - as opposed to fufilling the minumum required to complete a task - in both oneself and others.
Pride in ones associates will lead to a greater appreciation of the value of friends and loved ones.
The pride a parent feels when their child excels is enobling for the parent and, when it is expressed, one of the greatest character builders a child can experience.
While it is true that there is a dark and demeaning side to pride, it is the excess of pride, and unfounded pride which damages both individual and society. However, to label all pride as "sin" rather than to simply acknowlege the faults of its excess would be the height of hubris.
“If Tyranny and Oppression come to this land, it will be in the guise of fighting a foreign enemy.”
-- James Madison
I guess I part ways with most of you here. I don't think there are "Deadly Sins." I think there are practical ways to get things done, but no simple formula can be universally true in all situations. These silly platitudes sound like Readers Digest quotes, not formulas to dictate your lives.
Good science is done all the time without any humanity. Should we throw away every scientific advance because the scientist wasn't a caring person?
Wealth without work (lottery wins, for example) is put to good use in charities, helping one's family, etc. It's not a sin to be born rich or to win the lottery.
I'd much rather be around a person who was proud than a moping, self-depreciating person. I'm fond of arrogant assholes. A few of them have gotten more done for the world than a multitude of "the meek."
Conscience just gets in the way of pleasure. People feel guilty about too many things (sex, for instance).
Knowledge without character? It's better than character without knowledge. I mean, Rush Limbaugh has got lots of chracter . . . (just kidding, Rush fans).
Life can't be summed up in a catchy phrase. Reality is much more complex.
Plissken, maybe I'm taking you too seriously, but yes, education without intelligence is a great thing. We wouldn't have accountants without it! Are you suggesting that stupid people shouldn't receive education?
Determination and a good work ethic are far more important to success in a career than intelligence. Plenty of philosophy majors are waiting tables (I know, I was a philosophy major).
I'm halfway to agreeing with you, malik, in that conscience gets in the way of pleasure. But only if the reason you feel bad is an invalid one. If you have a VALID reason to regret a decision, that means you've learned something. If it's an invalid reason, such as to me the 'god said so' complex, then it's simply interfering in experiencing life and whatnot.
It depends on what you want in life. Sure, it's not a sin to be born rich and not have to work. But I can't stand those people and often get violent urges towards them. As far as the jerks, the only people that i've ever met that have spent a lot of time with people who were being jerks to them...
well...are you talking about people who are jerks to YOU, or just jerks to strangers?
Because 'jerk' behaviour generally increases conflict, and supports low self esteem. Which is the kind of thing that feeds directly into meekness, and humility, and conscious. The people are more likely to feel bad about themselves.
I guess what I'm saying there is, I don't think you can rail against the meek and celebrate the jerk at the same time, because they create each other. Without the meek for jerks to be jerks to, there's no jerk. Without the jerks, the meek probably aren't going to be quite so meek.
EDIT: But can there PLEASE be more guilt free sex available? PLEASE? *sigh*
Start where you are,
use what you have,
do what you can.
Politics without Principle and Commerce without Morality could be applied to many situations ripped right from today's headlines...
