Death

[Avatar]

meaning = intent, no? intent = driving force, no? to discern the intent one can merely observe it, without interpreting it.(the wind? the sun?) perceive = observe = discover.

I fear our usual semantic difficulties here. What is the "intent" of the wind? Of the sun? And is our perception of these things not also subject to interpretation?

Interpreting requires thought, an action, while perceiving requires only awareness.

Is it possible to percieve something without interpreting it? And what?

Awareness also does not require thought, nor does it require perception.

Can you be aware of something without interpreting it? And what?

Awareness in a void has nothing to perceive, as perceive is defined as an action, and before action is non-action, which cannot be defined as the act of not acting. the non-action before the act of perception is awareness.

Would awareness perceive the void?

Awareness is a state, but is also an action, an act of intent. Another seeming paradox. Awareness only requires intent, or a driving force, and energy. It is an important, nay crucial, distinction between regarding intent as a force, and intent as a thought. A thought is an interpretation. The same distinction must be made between regarding perception as an act of awareness, and as a result of interpretation. Perception is an act of awareness, while interpretation is an act of perception, not the result of perception, in this case.

Do we intend to be aware? (Still having that problem with intent). Perception and interpretation are inextricably intertwined.

An interpretation requires a shared value, and as we have no shared value to interpret the intent of the universe, we can only observe it, without interpreting it, hence "pure perception", or "direct observation", or "intial discovery", the exact single moment that perception occurs, before interpretation.

Interpretation requires a value, I can accept. A shared value though? An "un-shared" value would (does) permit interpretation just as easily, surely?

Intent requires energy, and also is considered energy, since it itself is a "driving force". This is considered a "paradox", or better yet, "The Paradox". Energy requires intent requires energy. Irreducible complexity, or as I prefer, Irreducible Residue, the last verifiable components of Reality are energy and intent, which are of and is the same.

Have to think about this one...

Regarding command to live, you are forced to live, and as such must oppose that force to die. You cannot decide to live, you can only decide to die. Saying you decide to live only means that you have decided not to die. Death is also a command that is not dependent upon your will, for it is the natural order of life, and you will die one day despite your best effort to avoid it. Left unhindered, beyond your will, you must live, and you must die, because life itself commands it so.

[/quote]

That, I think I can live with...but I'll have to consider it.

--A

[The Laughing Man]

meaning = intent, no? intent = driving force, no? to discern the intent one can merely observe it, without interpreting it.(the wind? the sun?) perceive = observe = discover.

I fear our usual semantic difficulties here. What is the "intent" of the wind? Of the sun? And is our perception of these things not also subject to interpretation?

Yes, "the usual", heh. If we cannot agree on the basic breakdown "in principle" that "reality" is thus:
energy-intent-aware-perceive-interpret-describe;
state - act - state - act - act - act
then we cannot agree on anything at all, in this case, which is "hypothetical". Seems like you are worried I'm going to "infect you" or trick you into admitting something, relax! It's just pretend! The "intent" of the wind as "observed" is "something is moving", which infers "something", a "force", set it in motion. We have "interpreted" the wind with science, and it "appears" the "intent", or "driving force", of the wind is "hot and cold air masses". This applies to the sun as well, the same, but different.
If we do not "choose" to interpret, then we just "perceive", or "observe", or "are aware", without trying to explain, or interpret it.

Interpreting requires thought, an action, while perceiving requires only awareness.

Is it possible to percieve something without interpreting it? And what?

I "perceive" you as "something". To "interpret" you I must "get to know you". (I know it gets more complicated than that, but lets stop there for now)

Awareness also does not require thought, nor does it require perception.

Can you be aware of something without interpreting it? And what?

You jumped ahead a little there, but thats ok. Aware is a "state", not an "action". The act of awareness is to perceive, or "direct awareness to", an "action from stasis". If you do not "act", you just "be".

Awareness in a void has nothing to perceive, as perceive is defined as an action, and before action is non-action, which cannot be defined as the act of not acting. the non-action before the act of perception is awareness.

Would awareness perceive the void?

To "perceive", or "direct awareness to", there must be something there to "act upon". Void is "null", and awareness, in a true "stasis" (not acting), cannot "do", only "be".

Awareness is a state, but is also an action, an act of intent. Another seeming paradox. Awareness only requires intent, or a driving force, and energy. It is an important, nay crucial, distinction between regarding intent as a force, and intent as a thought. A thought is an interpretation. The same distinction must be made between regarding perception as an act of awareness, and as a result of interpretation. Perception is an act of awareness, while interpretation is an act of perception, not the result of perception, in this case.

Do we intend to be aware? (Still having that problem with intent). Perception and interpretation are inextricably intertwined.

"Be aware" infers action to state, and requires "a force", or "intent". You are having a problem because you are using your "subjective definition" (interpretation) against my "perception", or "observation" of "perceive". Won't work, need a "shared value". My "hypothesis", as all are, is dependent upon the "values" of the individual components. It's like math, and if you insert your own values in place of mine, the equation will not work. You also seem to be intertwining "intent" with "conscious thought" and it has not been defined that way, only as "driving force", no more, no less.

An interpretation requires a shared value, and as we have no shared value to interpret the intent of the universe, we can only observe it, without interpreting it, hence "pure perception", or "direct observation", or "intial discovery", the exact single moment that perception occurs, before interpretation.

Interpretation requires a value, I can accept. A shared value though? An "un-shared" value would (does) permit interpretation just as easily, surely?


A "shared value" is defined as a "definition", or "unit of descriptive interpretation". If you cannot "define" the perception, you cannot "interpret" it either. That which we cannot explain we can only observe. That which we cannot "interpret" we can only "perceive".

Intent requires energy, and also is considered energy, since it itself is a "driving force". This is considered a "paradox", or better yet, "The Paradox". Energy requires intent requires energy. Irreducible complexity, or as I prefer, Irreducible Residue, the last verifiable components of Reality are energy and intent, which are of and is the same.

Have to think about this one...

Regarding command to live, you are forced to live, and as such must oppose that force to die. You cannot decide to live, you can only decide to die. Saying you decide to live only means that you have decided not to die. Death is also a command that is not dependent upon your will, for it is the natural order of life, and you will die one day despite your best effort to avoid it. Left unhindered, beyond your will, you must live, and you must die, because life itself commands it so.

That, I think I can live with...but I'll have to consider it.

--A

funfunfunfun!!!!!


BTW, is Alynna still with us?

[Avatar]

Alynna? Oh...of course...her topic. Probably gave up in exasperattion after we derailed it...again.

Oh, I don't worry, I assure you. I like to be careful though.

See, I think that to percieve something, anything, is to interpret it. Our very perceptions are interpretations.

Your perception of me as something is an interpretation filtered through your own system. The act of percieving me, (being aware that I exist) automatically includes a judgement (interpretation), based on that perception. But the perception itself is your interpretation. You perceive me as X (or Y, or whatever.) That is not to say that I am, in any way, as you percieve me.

The fact that your perception may be inaccurate, or even other than my own perception of myself, means that it is an interpretation.

--A

[Fist and Faith]

I've only read Alynna's initial post so far. A few differences with how I view things, but extremely close to what I would have said.

I believe death is oblivion. The end of me. I'm occasionally bothered by the thought, but not too often. I'm much more concerned with the transition. With any luck, I'll go without ever knowing it was about to happen. As Corwin said, in bed with a gorgeous woman, and a piano falls on me. (He said something like that, anyway.)

Regarding the question about why people care what their funerals are going to be like, I think it's for the living. My funeral will be the last memory anyone has of me. If all that survives of us is other people's memories of us, then my funeral is pretty important. Bill Cosby thought it would be funny to have a tape recording of yourself at your casket. "Hi. Thanks for coming. Don't I look natural?" For an extra fee, you could add names. "Hi Bob. How's the wife and kids?" Data had a very cool funeral for Geordi (when they thought he had died), with a Dixieland Jazz band. I've always been attracted to the kind that Luke gave Vader.

[Alynna Lis Eachann]

I'll be honest and say you lost me around the first command post. I promise I'll go back and read it all some day soon.

Regarding the question about why people care what their funerals are going to be like, I think it's for the living. My funeral will be the last memory anyone has of me. If all that survives of us is other people's memories of us, then my funeral is pretty important. Bill Cosby thought it would be funny to have a tape recording of yourself at your casket. "Hi. Thanks for coming. Don't I look natural?" For an extra fee, you could add names. "Hi Bob. How's the wife and kids?" Data had a very cool funeral for Geordi (when they thought he had died), with a Dixieland Jazz band. I've always been attracted to the kind that Luke gave Vader.

Good point. Assuming anybody other than the mortician shows up at my funeral , I'd like it to be the kind that Ro and Geordie had. Reminiscing about the good times, good music playing, a fun party ran than an obligatory mourning session.

Really like the taped voice idea!

[The Laughing Man]

...I'm much more concerned with the transition. With any luck, I'll go without ever knowing it was about to happen.

...In his last battle on earth a warrior lets his spirit flow free and clear. And as he wages his battle, knowing that his intent is impeccable, a warrior laughs and laughs...Don Juan Matus

(I like your funeral idea too....here's mine with a twist, I want home videos to go along with it, too, heh. )

Rem - Try Not to Breathe

I will try not to breathe.
I can hold my head still with my hands at my knees.
These eyes are the eyes of the old, shiver and fold.

I will try not to breathe.
This decision is mine. I have lived a full life
And these are the eyes that I want you to remember. Oh.

I need something to fly over my grave again.
I need something to breathe.

I will try not to burden you.
I can hold these inside. I will hold my breath
Until all these shivers subside,
Just look in my eyes.

I will try not to worry you.
I have seen things that you will never see.
Leave it to memory me. I shudder to breathe.

I want you to remember. Oh. (you will never see)
I need something to fly (something to fly)
Over my grave again. (you will never see)
I need something to breathe. (something to breathe)
Baby, don’t shiver now.
Why do you shiver now? (I will see things you will never see)
I need something to fly (something to fly)
Over my grave again. (I will see things you will never see)
I need something to breathe. Oh. Oh. Oh.

I will try not to worry you.
I have seen things that you will never see.
Leave it to memory me. Don’t dare me to breathe.

I want you to remember. Oh. (you will never see)
I need something to fly (something to fly)
Over my grave again. (you will never see)
I need something to breathe. (something to breathe)
Baby, don’t shiver now.
Why do you shiver now? (I will see things you will never see)
I need something to breathe.
(something to breathe - I have seen things you will never see)
I want you to remember.

(I'll get back to you later, --A, but I think we have this one covered in PSOTM? We should let these poor folks get back in? heh. )

[The Somberlain]

I'd like there to be an afterlife - as long as it's a pleasant one. But I strongly believe that there'll be nothing. It's quite... I dunno, it's got to be about 10 years since I started really thinking about it and I still can't get my head around it. I imagine this'll last for a good while yet.

But... hm. While I'm not suicidal, I've recently realised that I'm no longer afraid to die, simply because I don't care. I don't feel that living (in my case) is particularly productive. I'll keep doing it, though. Things might improve. I think it's also partly because the idea of Nothing isn't so frightening anymore (or maybe the it's the other way round).

But enough of that talk.
My funeral... I'm not that bothered. But I do want to specify the music people will remember me by.

I'm still debating whether to stipulate that, should I die in a car crash, the song "Killer Cars" should be played:
"Too hard on the brakes again
What if these brakes just give in?
What if they don't get out of the way?
What if there's someone overtaking?
I'm going out for a little drive
And it could be the last time you see me alive
There could be an idiot on the road
The only kick in life is pumping his steel."

[Cail]

Death will come. Hopefully on my terms, but it will come.

I don't fret about it anymore, and I don't fear it. But I'm certainly not afraid of it.

[Revan]

What do I think on death?

I'm terrified.

I don't believe in God, nor do I disbelieve; perhaps that won't make sense to some people. But believe and disbelieve are purely abstract concepts that humans create to explain how they perceive the world.

I have said this many times, and will undoubtedly say so again before my time is done; there are no facts supporting God's existence. Or even existence in "ghost". If the facts say there is no God, then there isn't. If the facts change to provide us with information and proof of a celestial being; then there is, no arguing with facts.

And concerning Ghosts... no, there is no such thing as ghosts either. If there were, it would be inconceivable that scientists wouldn't have found concrete proof by now. When you die, you don't become a ghost, you just, in my opinion, become nothing...

That scares me. The idea of becoming nonexistent... that you'd just be a name in the ever-lasting list of names of death people that have passed away; that once the people who you know die; no-one will give you a second thought or care about who you were... scares me.

I would rather exist. It's part of the argument I supplied when I started a topic, and one question was, if you could live forever, or pro-long your own life; would you?

[Prebe]

if you could live forever, or pro-long your own life; would you?

If you asked me now, I might say yes. But I have no idea how I will feel in 40 years time (if I live that long).

[danlo]

Death is a door, and there are may more... suicide is for wimps!

[The Laughing Man]

Jacob’s Ladder

Louis: Eckhart saw Hell too. He said: The only thing that burns in Hell is the part of you that won't let go of life, your memories, your attachments. They burn them all away. But they're not punishing you, he said. They're freeing your soul. So, if you're frightened of dying and... and you're holding on, you'll see devils tearing your life away. But if you've made your peace, then the devils are really angels, freeing you from the earth.

www.gracecathedral.org/enrichment/brush ... 1022.shtml

[Avatar]

Things generally do improve Somberlain, it just sometimes takes a while.

There's certainly nothing to be terrified of Darth, especially if it's oblivion. In fact, if there's nothing but oblivion, we'll never know.

Funerals should be a celebration of the person's life.

Anything else is just too much of a waste.

--A

[Revan]

There's certainly nothing to be terrified of Darth, especially if it's oblivion. In fact, if there's nothing but oblivion, we'll never know

I'd rather be in hell than suffer nothingness... at least they'll be part of me that exists.

[Fist and Faith]

But you can't suffer nothingness, meh? You can fear it while still alive, but, if it is, indeed, what awaits us, you can't fear, suffer, regret, or enjoy it once it happens. (Count 'em, folks! 7 commas in that sentence!!)

And if you must have some feeling about it while still alive, which is probably unavoidable, try thinking about how restful it must be.




OK, since I have a reputation to uphold, here's a few posts. Actually, I posted these way back on May 1, 2003.

A great moment from The Farthest Shore:

"To be one’s self is a rare thing and a great one. To be one’s self forever: is that not better still?”

Arren looked straight at Sparrowhawk. “You would say to me that it is not better. But tell me why. I was a child when I began this voyage, a child who did not believe in death. You think me a child still, but I have learnt something, not much, maybe, but something; I have learnt that death exists and that I am to die. But I have not learnt to rejoice in the knowledge, to welcome my death or yours. If I love life, shall I not hate the end of it? Why should I not desire immortality?”

Arren’s fencing-master in Berila had been a man of about sixty, short and bald and cold. Arren had disliked him for years, though he knew him to be an extraordinary swordsman. But one day in practice he had caught his master off guard and nearly disarmed him, and he had never forgotten the incredulous, incongruous happiness that had suddenly gleamed in the master’s cold face, the hope, the joy - an equal, at last an equal! From that moment on, the fencing-master had trained him mercilessly, and whenever they fenced, that same relentless smile would be on the old man’s face, brightening as Arren pressed him harder. And it was on Sparrowhawk’s face now, the flash of steel in sunlight.

“Why should you not desire immortality? How should you not? Every soul desires it, and its health is in the strength of its desire. - But be careful; you are one who might achieve your desire.”

“And then?”

“And then this: a false king ruling, the arts of man forgotten, the singer tongueless, the eye blind. This! - this blight and plague on the lands, this sore we seek to heal. There are two, Arren, two that make one: the world and the shadow, the light and the dark. The two poles of the Balance. Life rises out of death, death rises out of life; in being opposite they yearn to each other, they give birth to each other and are forever reborn. And with them all is reborn, the flower of the apple tree, the light of the stars. In life is death. In death is rebirth. What then is life without death? Life unchanging, everlasting, eternal? - What is it but death - death without rebirth?”

Here's a couple more:

"Everybody's scared of death, until it hits you. After that you never give it another thought." -Archie Bunker

"I wake up every morning looking in the face of death, and you know what? He ain’t half bad. I think the secret old Mister Death is holding is that it’s better for some of us over on the other side. I know it can’t be any worse for me." -Doc Holliday in Wyatt Earp

And last, but not least:

"But the power over death is a delusion. There cannot be life without death." -Saltheart Foamfollower

[lucimay]

The two poles of the Balance. Life rises out of death, death rises out of life; in being opposite they yearn to each other, they give birth to each other and are forever reborn. And with them all is reborn, the flower of the apple tree, the light of the stars. In life is death. In death is rebirth. What then is life without death? Life unchanging, everlasting, eternal? - What is it but death - death without rebirth?”

ah...ursula. she one cool cookie. she read lau tzu. she look lucimay right in the eye when they shake hands and smile like she know many many secrets. lucimay love ursula, she wise woman. many thanks fist and faith.

[Alynna Lis Eachann]

There's certainly nothing to be terrified of Darth, especially if it's oblivion. In fact, if there's nothing but oblivion, we'll never know.

That my view. I always ask people... "What do you care? You'll be dead. It's not like you'll know something's wrong!"

[Fist and Faith]

Ah, lucimay, you have great taste! I fell in love with Ursula with A Wizard of Earthsea. At the time, there was only the trilogy. I loved the wisdom of it. Many years later, for no particular reason, I decided to read the Tao Te Ching. I was, like, "Hey! This is Earthsea!" It was unmistakable. I read around a little, and found out she has her own translation of the TTC. Um... sort of. She doesn't know Chinese at all, but grew up with it because of her father, and has read many translations herself. So she wrote one based on what all the translations were telling her.

Again, let me invite all to the Immanent Grove: p210.ezboard.com/fahirashangarfrm37

[lucimay]

Tehanu lucimay's favorite besides Left Hand of Darkness but also really like The Telling. wants to be an Envoy!!!

[lucimay]

on topic...i don't know WHAT is going to happen to me when i die. here's a nice thought. it doesn't matter so much to me anymore. i DO, however, get the stinkin suspicion i'm gonna have to do this WHOLE thing AGAIN!!! arg.


*lucimay lights another Camel Light and blows a grit ol big smoke ring*