Sunbane 2.0

[KAY1]

The ruse of asking for Covenants help may have just been Foul taking a chance that he could get him to use enough power to destroy the Arch. It wasn't his main plan as he didn't really think it would work but it was worth a try. Kind of like a sub plan to his Plan A. If they had been able to persuade him everything else would have become irrelevant.

[Nerdanel]

I can't think of a better place to post this nugget from the GI.

Jim Morin...Fort Lauderdale, FL: Mr. Donaldson:
Thank you so much for all The Chronicles. I read Lord Foul's Bane when I was 15 and have been a fan of imaginative literature ever since.

1> It seems to me that Elena's breaking of the Law of Death did have some beneficial effects. Mhoram and Foamfollower were able to speak with Covenant in Andelain, and Covenant was able to return from the dead in "Runes."
Was it a deliberate move to NOT have Linden repair/re-instate The Law of Death when she held the Staff of Law at the end of the Second Chronicles? Or, is The Staff incapable of doing so?

2> Thank you also for recommending Steven Erickson. I wondered if you have read anything by Robert Newcomb? If so, what did you think? If not...DON'T! You don't have time for "recreational" reading! You have books to write!!<grin>

Seriously, thanks so much for Covenant, Mordant's Need, Brew, and even, <sigh> The Gap.

------------------------

1) a) The "Covenant" books are all about paradox. In these stories, disasters often have beneficial side-effects; and victories often undermine themselves. No one should be surprised if "The Last Chronicles" turns out to be More Of The Same. <grin>

b) Well, Linden didn't exactly have a lot of time to work before she left the Land. There was a great deal that she didn't or couldn't know about how things *should* be in the Land. In addition, her Staff is not identical to Berek's, so its capacities are different. And then there's the whole issue of whether a mere "instrument" can alter that which the instrument expresses. After all, the *Staff* didn't break the Law of Death. Naturally there's some ambiguity as to whether or not the Staff *can* repair the damage.

2) I lead a rather isolated life. Until I read your message, I'd never heard of Robert Newcomb.

(03/20/2006)

I have also noticed that the books use the Law of Unintended Consequences. Now there is more evidence that Kevin's Dirt is caused by the Staff of Law. Namely, SRD is strongly hinting that the victory at the end of WGW caused Something Bad to happen. We know that Kevin's Dirt is not caused by Lord Foul or someone taking orders from him, so that makes it a prime candidate for having been caused by our heroes.

Though, perhaps instead of the Staff of Law Kevin's Dirt is caused by the breaking of the Law of Life, or something like that.

Perhaps Earthpower is nowadays mortal due to its connection to mortals and stays floating around littering the place after it's been used once. That would ALSO have very bad implications for Linden + the Staff of Law and a incidentally a very good reason to ban the use of Earthpower. Linden did think of both industrial pollution and cerements when she saw Kevin's Dirt.

Well, SOMETHING is going to come to the light anyway.

[wayfriend]

Now there is more evidence that Kevin's Dirt is caused by the Staff of Law.

Well, I can see Donaldson saying that merely creating a new Staff of Law would not restore the Law's of Death or Life. And that Linden might have addressed the issue directly, but she did not, due to insufficient time. And that the new Staff is different in some imprecise way that bears on this.

But I can't see the connection from here to Kevin's Dirt. I know that there's a popular theory on the Watch that they're connected. But nothing Donaldson is saying here proves or disproves the connection, I'm afraid. I think the connection to Kevin's Dirt comes from you're a priori assumption that it is connected to Kevin's Dirt.

I think this one is best explained backwards. The story required that the Laws were not repaired, and so they were not. There is sufficient justification for why it turned out this way in the story, which Donaldson reminds us of.

[Nerdanel]

I didn't mean that necessarily the Staff of Law caused Kevin's Dirt and in fact provided an alternate explanation. But I do think SRD meant that the victory in the end of WGW contained the seed(s) for something bad.

What could it be?
- Law of Life getting broken?
- Hollian being resurrected?
- Last Forestal dying?
- Staff of Law being created?
- Covenant becoming the Arch of Time (with leprosy)?
- Covenant's little resurrected distraction?

I think it's probably several of them, causing several effects.

But as to Kevin's Dirt not being one of the effects, I have a hard time thinking what else it could be. Lord Foul did not do it, or he would have admitted to it. Nobody did it on Lord Foul's orders either, or he would have gleefully taken the credit. The language Lord Foul used to describe Kevin's Dirt ("fine riposte") makes me think it wasn't some entirely unconnected desecration centuries or millennia later by someone like Kastenessen. "Riposte" specifically means a quick retaliation.

Also, the Elohim that visited Mithil Stonedown mentioned the shadow upon his kind. The original shadow was caused by the Sunbane, but obviously the shadow has not gone away with the healing of the Land, or it has been regenerated somehow. As a yet another option, perhaps the Sunbane and the shadowed Elohim supported each other, so that the Elohim gone bad made Kevin's Dirt to replace the Sunbane.

But still I think that there is a huge potential problem with the Staff having been created when the Sunbane was in effect and Earthpower warped in the Land.

By the way, my theory is popular? How is that possible?

[wayfriend]

I didn't mean that necessarily the Staff of Law caused Kevin's Dirt and in fact provided an alternate explanation. But I do think SRD meant that the victory in the end of WGW contained the seed(s) for something bad.

(I did say 'connected' and not 'caused', didn't I?) I agree; he as much says that two of the seeds are that the two Laws were not repaired. And we've seen from the text that this led directly to ceasures and fractures in the Arch of Time.

But as to Kevin's Dirt not being one of the effects, I have a hard time thinking what else it could be.

The Land was staffless between the first and second chronicles and this did not cause any spontaneous harm. (The Sunbane was Foul's doing.) So there's no reason to think that it's causing spontaneous harm after the second chronicles.

It does seem to help the Masters out a lot. I think that that's too strong a connection to ignore.

By the way, my theory is popular? How is that possible?

You have about 34 trillion... you're bound to ring a bell with one of them ... [/quote]

[Nerdanel]

I agree; he as much says that two of the seeds are that the two Laws were not repaired. And we've seen from the text that this led directly to ceasures and fractures in the Arch of Time.

I don't think we can say caesures result from the broken Laws of Life and Death. I think the only way they contribute is that they made it easier for Lord Foul to summon Joan. I think Covenant would theoretically have been able to make caesures already in LFB if he had had a better grasp of how to use his ring.

So the broken Laws would have had some other effect, but it might be that the effect isn't quite visible yet...

The Land was staffless between the first and second chronicles and this did not cause any spontaneous harm. (The Sunbane was Foul's doing.) So there's no reason to think that it's causing spontaneous harm after the second chronicles.

I've been thinking that it's not the Stafflessness, it's the Staff this time that's the problem. Linden made the Staff of Law to uphold the Law during a time when the Law had been corrupted. As a consequence, the corruption would have been made enshrined into the Staff. The Staff's absence of centuries probably slowed down the development of the problem.

By the way, I've noticed that Anele talks a LOT like Gollum, so much that I don't think the resemblance is accidental, and there are other incidental resemblances too. Wild idea: what if the Staff of Law is the One Ring of the Last Chronicles? What if the Staff made Anele into the wreck he is? Sure Linden doesn't see anything but good in the Staff, but the One Ring also has the power to appear beautiful and precious. What if the Waynhim really had a good reason to keep the Staff hidden but the Staff's influence made them waver in their resolution?

Now, that would be a plot twist worthy of Lord Foul.

[wayfriend]

Speaking of the effects of Kevin's Dirt vis a vis the Masters

However, Kevin's Dirt is very different from the Sunbane. The health-sense doesn't seem to be lost, gone, absent. It seems to be blocked or suspended. This is evident in that the health-sense she restores is lost in a short time. Not 'over generations'. And it is only lost only when "in" the Dirt - health-sense 'sticks' above the Dirt or outside the Dirt. So the Dirt is covering up the health-sense, not eliminating it. (It is not like the Sunbane very much at all).

As to whether or not the Masters are affected by Kevin's Dirt, I can find one cryptic clue. Anele speaks:

"You are blind," he responded scornfully. Kevin's Dirt blinds you. On the Watch you stood above it. It could not affect you. Now -" He smacked his lips in disdain or regret. "You are unaware of it because it blinds you. You do not see me. Only the Masters-"

Only the Masters- ... what? have health-sense?
And later in Revelstone Linden says to Galt, "Kevin's Dirt doesn't affect you."

So, somehow, the Masters remain free. Perhaps it is merely Haruchai constitution which protects them, as from the Sunbane, or Kasreyn's geas.

Now it seems some light has been shed on this topic in the GI.

Ian G: Okay, now this one confuses me... In the Second "Chronicles" the Haruchai say that the Bloodguard had Linden's sight, but the Haruchai don't possess it... yet in the Last Chronicles, in many cases they seem to surpass Linden even in defiance of Kevins Dirt... how does that work? And just ahead of time, can't wait for Fatal Revenant... *grin*

• Well, here's my explanation, for what it's worth: the Sunbane and Kevin's Dirt are very different forms of evil. The Sunbane was a corrosion of Law itself, an attack on "the natural order." Kevin's Dirt is more like, well, a fog; a veil which obscures perception, but which does not alter what lies behind it. Ergo, the "transcendant" nature of the Haruchai was affected in "The Second Chronicles" but is not in "The Last Chronicles".
  
  (06/30/2006)