Kevin's Watch

Kil Tyme wrote: The only interesting thing so far is the new kid on the island. Anyone mention him yet? At first I thought it was Jacob as a kid, but now I think perhaps it is a third entity, perhaps the judge of Jacob and Flock.

I've mentioned him

I think he's whatever is making sure MiB and Jacob are following the rules... I mean, I can't imagine MiB would be following them unless he was forced. I also think that he appears to MiB as a kid Jacob because he views Jacob as the restrictions on him, not anything else... or maybe it just takes the form of any guardian of the island.

Murrin wrote:Yeah. If both players know how to play, every game is always a tie.

My geekiness has to show through or something right now: this is because, in game theory terms, TTT is "decidable."

Okay, that was the first especially good episode of the season, in my opinion. And I think Act 1 of the season is officially over.

First, Sayid's flash-sideways:
1.Omar was his brother's name in the episode, but Omar was also the name of Keamy's associate in the regular timeline that Keamy kicked a grenade to, resulting in his death. We didn't get the name of the associate (who played Omar in regular timeline) in this episode, but he was shot by someone on his own side. Poor...ummm....Omar....
2.Wasn't the kitchen where we saw Keamy in this episode the same one that in a previous Sayid flashback had Sayid being held by some guy who was planning on killing Sayid for torturing his wife?
3. Is Jinn there because he was delivering the watch from Sun's dad? Are we picking this up in an upcoming Sun/Jinn episode?

Regular timeline:
1. I was starting to feel a little disappointed by this weeks episode again, other than the good Sayid alternate side-story. We saw a bit more Smokey and the cold burn from Dogen, but as Dogen and Sayid sat by the pool, I glanced at the clock and saw it was 7 minutes until the hour. I figured they were wrapping it up and it would end unsatifyingly. Then it happened. Instant classic Lost surprise. And pity about Sayid, as I thought he would find redemption. I was bracing when I heard an hour or two before the episode that it was a Sayid episode, as I thought he might die in this episode. I much prefer this.
2. The look on Sayid's face when Ben comes to visit. It's one of the first times my wife and I have rooted for Ben to save his life.
3. Kate is in a really bad spot.
4. Did anybody else get a strong Stephen King's The Stand vibe from the last images of FLocke with his followers?

While we haven't got the info dump yet, we are definitely being given the sides now. Play ball!

Cagliostro wrote: While we haven't got the info dump yet, we are definitely being given the sides now. Play ball!

That's about it. To me, this episode was about as good (maybe a little bit better) then last weeks episode. I was kinda hoping for something epic, instead I got exactly what I thought would happen based on last week's preview.

On the flipside, there isn't a temple for the characters to stall in anymore.

You guys have made exactly the points I was going to make: first chapter done. They're OUT of the most boring temple I've ever seen (it's unbelievable that a temple with a fountain of life can be so boring). The lines have been drawn, sides chosen. Time to play ball.

I think this just goes to show that a little goes a long way. Back when Smokey was only revealed a couple episodes a season, it was a lot more scary and mysterious. But now even a Smokey rampage is boring. And needlessly ambiguous. Why did he kill people in the temple? No explanation. Why is it safer in a hole? No explanation (maybe he can't float vertically?). Why was Dogen the only thing keeping him out? No explanation (I thought it was the ash ring!). Apparently the temple characters were even more pointless and disposable than the tailies from season 2.

By the end we have yet another scene with Locke leading a group of people to some unnamed place. We saw that in season 4, season 5, and now season 6. It's getting old.

The good: Sayid. It was a cool clue that he didn't end up with Nadia in the sideflash. He wasn't good enough for her. And that is mirrored in his actions on the island. It would be more interesting if his character change wasn't an "infection," but at least the writers have the balls to make one of our favorites unsympathetic. At least something is happening.

I also thought Sayid's interactions with Flocke and Dogen were excellent. Stabbing Flocke and drowning Dogen were both complete surprises.

Hopefully the temple was this season's bear cages (which I actually thought had more drama!), and now we're done with the most boring part of the season. Please don't let me down, Lost!

Zarathustra wrote:Why is it safer in a hole? No explanation (maybe he can't float vertically?).

Actually, that had been set up a bit by the sonic gates protecting Otherville. I found it weird that he couldn't pass over the gates in...what?...Season 3, I think.

Cagliostro wrote:

Zarathustra wrote:Why is it safer in a hole? No explanation (maybe he can't float vertically?).

Actually, that had been set up a bit by the sonic gates protecting Otherville. I found it weird that he couldn't pass over the gates in...what?...Season 3, I think.

It could also be an agreement he had with Claire, knowing she would end up in a hole, he didn't carry his rampaging into a hole so as not to kill Claire.

As far as the temple slaughter, he's just gathering those that will follow him and disposing of those that won't.

Perhaps somehow Dogen made the ash potent against Esau, and now that he's "gone" (I mean, come on, he was drowned in the fountain of life! I hope he's dead, though... and stays dead) the ash may not do anything to Esau now.

Cagliostro wrote:

Zarathustra wrote:Why is it safer in a hole? No explanation (maybe he can't float vertically?).

Actually, that had been set up a bit by the sonic gates protecting Otherville. I found it weird that he couldn't pass over the gates in...what?...Season 3, I think.

My take is that Claire was in a safe spot because that was where smokey expected her to be, and Kate was safe because she was with her (though the sonic fence bit is interesting). But this implies that smokey on a rampage doesn't discriminate between friend and foe ...

Orlion wrote:Perhaps somehow Dogen made the ash potent against Esau, and now that he's "gone" (I mean, come on, he was drowned in the fountain of life! I hope he's dead, though... and stays dead) the ash may not do anything to Esau now.

I was just about to make that point. But I don't think the fountain of life is a fountain of life anymore. What did revive Sayid?

The business of Claire and Kate concerns me. Claire has been manipulated by non-Locke into hunting the Others because they had Aaron. Now that she knows Kate had Aaron, will the rest of the truth come out? One of my oldest peeves about this show is that nobody communicates, and when the truth comes out, it's almost always in the worst possible way.

I mean, really. How do these people keep their secrets so long? It isn't as easy as they make it look in Lost.

And one final rant: Dogen's death was preceded by a confession. Isn't that cliche? Now that you've learned all you need to know about this character, we can kill him off.

Interesting episode. Moves the plot along, albeit mostly through the scene between Sayid and Locke and the ending, but doesn't really offer any new information or answers. Hell, it doesn't even offer new questions.

No answers? Sure there were. For one thing, we know who the Locke-ness monster is now. He's "evil incarnate".

(Evil incarnate, immortal, trapped someplace he doesn't want to be, held there by his immortal enemy, trying to escape, working thrugh his minions ... hmmm .... will they call him Lord Foul in the next episode?)

And we know who Sayid's brother is now, too.

Well, obviously the best of the season, so far, but only due to some kick-ass fighting by Sayid; but otherwise another frustrating ep with no flipping answers! Geez. I echo Z on the stabbing and drowning surprises; I doubted each was going to occur, but was pleasently surprised each time; but what was Sayid's motivation to each?! If he was bad, why stab flock; and if good, why drown Dogen? A simple chat with flock turned on the "badness" that was brewing in Sayid? And yes, for crying out loud, the 10th time we see Locks character leading folks on a walkabout to points unknown.

Lastly, I doubt Dogen has drowned; probably pulled a martial arts "slow down body to fake death" thing. He was starting to get interesting.

If no answers soon...real answers to 6 year old questions, then they are either going to cram a bunch of answers in the last few eps, so much and so fast that we won't have time to savor one answer before the next queston is answered...or they are going to just have to tack on a season 7.

Sayid's actions are the culmination of a character arc that began with the death of Nadia (which we now know was due to Jacob's influence). It led to him becoming a killer, to him shooting Ben, getting shot himself, dying, and now to this.

We need to bear in mind, I think, that only a few days have passed since he shot Ben. He's the same person, it's just that he's been incapacitated for most of his time on screen since then. The person who was capable of killing Ben to prevent the future ever happening is the same one capable of betraying everything for a chance to see Nadia again. The knowledge that he has already died and that he is considered evil probably just helped him along the way.

Murrin wrote:Sayid's actions are the culmination of a character arc that began with the death of Nadia (which we now know was due to Jacob's influence). It led to him becoming a killer, to him shooting Ben, getting shot himself, dying, and now to this.

We need to bear in mind, I think, that only a few days have passed since he shot Ben. He's the same person, it's just that he's been incapacitated for most of his time on screen since then. The person who was capable of killing Ben to prevent the future ever happening is the same one capable of betraying everything for a chance to see Nadia again. The knowledge that he has already died and that he is considered evil probably just helped him along the way.

My only minor gripe with that is that we don't know for sure that Nadia's death was a result of Jacob's influence. After all, if Jacob hadn't stopped Sayid, he would also have died with Nadia. If anything, one could perhaps fault Jacob in that he didn't stop Nadia from crossing the street - on the other hand she wasn't forced to continue walking, she could have just as easily stopped with Sayid when Jacob asked for directions. Her death was a matter of free will - she chose to continue crossing the street even though Sayid was talking with a man asking directions, she chose to stop in the middle of the street to tell Sayid she had found her glasses. And if the driver of the truck was truly sent by Widmore (we have only Ben's word on that, but we don't have any elements to prove that wrong), then the accident was, literally, waiting to happen.

I think MiB is making a huge deal of "Jacob robbing people of their free will" and "manipulating them"... but I'm not sure that's what is really going on. He seems to be much more manipulative, in a subtle fashion, by disparaging the actions of a dead man (who obviously can't argue with it or explain his part) to make himself look like he's a martyr and a savior.

His bargains are much more about selfish temptation than Jacob's - reuniting with Nadia, versus "I'll save a loved one but you can never see them again" (Juliet's sister, Dogen's son). There's an element of altruism and sacrifice in Jacob's bargains. Not to mention that Jacob saves people from dying, while the other offers resurrection of the dead.

But with regard to Nadia's death, I think both of the connections we saw Jacob make after people left the island have been pivotal in what has occured since the return - Ben needed to be shot, and with Nadia alive it would never happen.

Murrin wrote:His bargains are much more about selfish temptation than Jacob's - reuniting with Nadia, versus "I'll save a loved one but you can never see them again" (Juliet's sister, Dogen's son). There's an element of altruism and sacrifice in Jacob's bargains. Not to mention that Jacob saves people from dying, while the other offers resurrection of the dead.

But with regard to Nadia's death, I think both of the connections we saw Jacob make after people left the island have been pivotal in what has occured since the return - Ben needed to be shot, and with Nadia alive it would never happen.

Maybe, but that doesn't mean that Jacob was responsible for Nadia's death - anymore than a random tourist would have been in Jacob's place. In fact, not even Sayid blamed the "tourist" for Nadia's death - at least, that we know of. Rather, he focused on Widmore's supposed truck driver.

Incidentally, we can't be sure that the person who was promised to Sayid by MIB is Nadia: it could well be Shannon (who died in his arms, literally). Shannon would actually fit for a couple of reasons: first, she died on the Island (so it may be easier for MIB to bring her back), and second, the actress's coming back to the show, which might temporally fit with this promise. Though this is just a gut feeling, of course...

I think it's pretty clear Jacob knew of everything that would happen after he made contact. He may not have directly caused it, but he was aware it would happen and intended for the events to occur in the way that followed (there would have been no need for the message carried to the temple by Hurley).

Murrin wrote:I think it's pretty clear Jacob knew of everything that would happen after he made contact. He may not have directly caused it, but he was aware it would happen and intended for the events to occur in the way that followed (there would have been no need for the message carried to the temple by Hurley).

Not necessarily. Jacob's meeting with Sayid occurred before his meeting with Hurley, and we don't know when he built the Ankh; it may be that he built the Ankh and adjusted his plan accordingly once Nadia died. It's equally plausible to speculate that his original plan didn't require Nadia's death, but because she died (which Jacob didn't cause himself), then he had to adjust the plan.

It may also be that Jacob knew both Sayid and Nadia would die in the crash, and he stopped Sayid to save a potential substitute - but he didn't know what Nadia would do in that altered future, and thought she'd stop with Sayid, or would cross the street and only then look for her glasses.

Whatever else you may say, that was some high quality character development. I just hope they spend some more time on Ilanna's character before she becomes another Dogen.

Orlion wrote:Whatever else you may say, that was some high quality character development. I just hope they spend some more time on Ilanna's character before she becomes another Dogen.

Considering how that character reveal went for Dogen, I'd rather they wait 8 or 9 episodes.

ItisWritten wrote:

Orlion wrote:Whatever else you may say, that was some high quality character development. I just hope they spend some more time on Ilanna's character before she becomes another Dogen.

Considering how that character reveal went for Dogen, I'd rather they wait 8 or 9 episodes.