Lost--Season 6 - Spoilers Abound!!!

[wayfriend]

(I've since discovered that the connections with Apep aren't mine alone, I can't take credit for it, although I did think of it on my own just as I was writing my last post.)

Questions:

Did Isabella really add in that last request to Richard, as Hurley says, or was Hurley making a play?

Does Richard's "I changed my mind" count? Does he belong to Black/Locke now?

[Cagliostro]

Actually, I saw this here:

different egyptian mythlogy sources have varying stories about the egyptian goddess taweret, symbolizing childbirth and fertility with the head of a hippo because she is a fierce protector of her children. the wikipedia page goes on to say 'when paired with another deity, she became the demon-wife of apep, the original god of evil.' hmm.. a demon-wife sounds like someone a kid might have some 'growing pains' with. taweret also had two children, osirus and set. here's where the connection between the mythology and the show gets muddled, but the legend of set involves an epic battle between good and evil fought between the two brothers - and a change in worship for set, once popularly worshiped, he suddenly became a god of evil. is the smoke monster a misunderstood god-child of taweret locked in a sibling rivalry battle with his brother jacob?

[ItisWritten]

Does Richard's "I changed my mind" count? Does he belong to Black/Locke now?

I suppose we could add Blocke to the smoke monster aliases.

As for your question, I don't believe there is a belonging to either Jacob or Blocke. If that were true, Richard couldn't simply switch despite MIBs offer. If it was as plain as announcing the shift in loyalty, Sayid, Claire and any of the others could turn away at any time.

Z. We did learn that prior to Richard's arrival, MIB hadn't simply sent someone to kill Jacob, and Jacob had left all his candidates to fend for themselves. Taking Richard as a disciple/recruit was a departure, and apparently the birth of the Others. And perhaps a new level of machinations between the 2, culminating in Jacob's death.

Also, Jacob rather easily handled Richard, which speaks again to the ease of Ben's 'murder' of Jacob.

[wayfriend]

That's interesting Cag. I had not found any references to Taweret's children.

The fact that Taweret is a goddess of fertility locks it for me. It connects too well with the childbirth issues mentioned in earlier seasons.

ItIsWritten: how about calling him the Man In BLocke?

Zarathustra: sure, we know that Jacob made Richard immortal, but aren't the how's and the why's interesting? Among other things, they tell us about motives.

To me, the hugest revelation is that Jacob brings people to the island in some sort of attempt to prove to BLocke that people can resist the urge to be evil... or something like that ... wish I had the exact words.

I can only imagine that this is some sort of attempt to rehabilitate Mr. Evil somehow.

[sindatur]

That's interesting Cag. I had not found any references to Taweret's children.

The fact that Taweret is a goddess of fertility locks it for me. It connects too well with the childbirth issues mentioned in earlier seasons.

That's been my thought ever since the statue was revealed to be her, but, I was thinking when she was broken, that's when the childbirth issues started, except Ethan was conceived on the island in 1977, and Tawaret's statue was broken by the Black Rock 100 years earlier, so, there's a gaping hole in the theory, so we still don't know exactly where the problem came from.

[I'm Murrin]

From now on the Man in Black is our Friend, because that's all he ever calls himself. If only Mr Friendly wasn't already taken!

The line was "He took my body. He took my humanity." The implication being that what our Friend is - the smoke, only able to appear in the form of dead people, never his real appearance - is something Jacob did to him.

Our Friend was undoubtedly only able to kill Jacob because Jacob allowed him to - that is very clear from Jacob's statement that only those he invites into the statue ever enter. This implies that he invited Ben and our Friend inside.


I was about to come along and say that we now know what the sideways universe is, based on Jacob's bottle metaphor. Then the final scene went and made its rather blunt point on the subject, heh. My original post would have sounded more elegant: The sideways universe is one where the cork has been removed from the bottle. But that last scene puts it differently, it says that the sideways universe is one where the bottle has been shattered. We've not seen it yet in the flashes, but it has to start coming up after such an unsubtle metaphor is used to make the point.


Other little subtleties in the scene - Jacob gives our Friend the bottle as "something to pass the time". If the bottle is the little portion of the universe that our Friend is confined to, then Jacob is making a joke about our Friend's situation. The Island is a gift, a place in which he is allowed free reign to do whatever he likes for the eternity he is confined there. Its purpose is as a place for him to pass the time during his imprisonment, and since he is left free reign, perhaps it is also an opportunity granted to him to prove Jacob right, and act for good, not evil, through his own choice. So far, he has only the selfish desire to be free.

[Zarathustra]

Zarathustra: sure, we know that Jacob made Richard immortal, but aren't the how's and the why's interesting? Among other things, they tell us about motives.

To me, the hugest revelation is that Jacob brings people to the island in some sort of attempt to prove to BLocke that people can resist the urge to be evil... or something like that ... wish I had the exact words.

The how's and why's could have been interesting. But "to be my go between" was already known, too. We've known that Richard was an advisor to the Others appointed by Jacob for years now. The only really new thing we've learned is that Richard was never told what to advise them. He doesn't know a thing. The more the writers reveal about him, the less there is to him. He doesn't know what's going on any more than the rest of them.

We did learn that prior to Richard's arrival, MIB hadn't simply sent someone to kill Jacob. . .

Did we learn that? How do you know no one else was sent to kill Jacob?

. . . , and Jacob had left all his candidates to fend for themselves.

Jacob still pretty much left all his candidates to fend for themselves, even after Richard. We haven't been shown that Richard has ever helped in the slightest (THAT would have been an interesting revelation). Honestly, what has Richard done besides stand around a be a mystery? He helped Locke one time, by revealing Sawyer's past. But anyone with Sawyer's file could have done that. In fact, after Richard, Jacob seems to have increased his interference with his candidates, taking an interest in each one personally, visiting them and (possibly) saving Locke's life. He talked Ilana into her task of protecting the candidates. So what was left for Richard to do? His immortality was a big waste.

Taking Richard as a disciple/recruit was a departure, and apparently the birth of the Others.

Now that's interesting. Perhaps you're right. The beginning of the Others. I like that.

I suppose I was hoping that Richard was a LOT older, like someone from ancient Egypt. Someone who knew the statue builders (another mystery that better get explained!).

[Blackhawk]

unless im way off on this Stephen King is writing for this series.. ive had my suspicions for quite a while now, and now that they are calling the smoke monster the man in black.. am i wrong? or just a huge coincidence with the feel and then pow..the man in black shows up.

[wayfriend]

The line was "He took my body. He took my humanity." The implication being that what our Friend is - the smoke, only able to appear in the form of dead people, never his real appearance - is something Jacob did to him.

Thanks, that's what I needed to know.

But why can he appear as so many dead people, when at the same time he is locked ("Locke-d"... get it?) into his current form now? This confuses me. He appears to be locked into another form during the time when Richard arrived, so it's not recent as far as I can tell. It's confusing.

The only really new thing we've learned is that Richard was never told what to advise them.

Well, we learned that Richard feared to die unshriven for the murder he committed, and that Jacob made him immortal because of that. As has been said, we learned he was the founder of the Others. Jacob probably has not been alone on the island since. We confirmed our suspicion that it was Richard in the chains on the ship. We learned that Jacob has a part for Richard to play now, even if he never did much before, because what's-her-name (Ivana?) knew that they needed to ask Richard what to do next. We learned that Richard would do anything to be with Isabella again, which may be critical in a future episode. We confirmed that it is Jacob who keeps MIB imprisoned on the island, we only had MIB's word for it earlier, and we never new why he was imprisoned before.

Most importantly, we learned why Jacob brings people to the island!

And we learned that MIB will probably try to kill whomever replaces Jacob, as he said those very words. Which could be a critical plot point.

[I'm Murrin]

He seems to have one preferred form at a time, but he does appear as others - Isabella, for one. His inability to change seems to have begun with Jacob's death, since he had no problem appearing as Alex shortly before that.

Also, we already knew to a good extent why Jacob brings people to the island - because that's what the two of them discussed in the opening scene of The Incident. They have an argument with each other over the nature of humanity, and Jacob brings people there hoping one will eventually prove his point.

[sindatur]

He seems to have one preferred form at a time, but he does appear as others - Isabella, for one. His inability to change seems to have begun with Jacob's death, since he had no problem appearing as Alex shortly before that.

Also, we already knew to a good extent why Jacob brings people to the island - because that's what the two of them discussed in the opening scene of The Incident. They have an argument with each other over the nature of humanity, and Jacob brings people there hoping one will eventually prove his point.

Yea, Ilana said Smokey is trapped in Locke's body now, and before Jacob was killed he appeared as Alex definitely (after he had appeared as Locke) and he probably also appeared as Christian to Sun and Lapidus when they first cae over from Hydra Island, so the only thing we know of that changed, that could've Locke-d (HEHE, Good one WF) Smokey into Locke's body is indeed the death of Jacob.

[wayfriend]

Murrin, if that is so, then who is the Isabella that appeared to Hurley in last nite's episode? Or are the people that Hurley sees of an altogether different type?

[I'm Murrin]

I suppose this is the first time we've seen the same person appear both as a Smokey illusion and as one of Hurley's ghosts, which is interesting, but probably explainable by the simple fact that our Friend is not really the people he appears to be, he just uses their image and memories. (Which I guess means I'm making the assumption that Hurley's ghosts are real, which is probably questionable.)

[sindatur]

I suppose this is the first time we've seen the same person appear both as a Smokey illusion and as one of Hurley's ghosts, which is interesting, but probably explainable by the simple fact that our Friend is not really the people he appears to be, he just uses their image and memories. (Which I guess means I'm making the assumption that Hurley's ghosts are real, which is probably questionable.)

The difference being the known Smokey impersonations are visible to everyone, Hurley's ghosts are only visible to Hurley. Also, Ilana knows (somehow) that Smokey can no longer impersonate others.

Interesting memory just came back to me. Way back in Season 2 or Season 3, the Others must've already known that Smokey impersonates dead bodies, as they had special Funeral Rights (casting the dead out on a burning raft)

[Kil Tyme]

A good episode. Great for this season, but merely fair when compared to the other seasons.

I'm glad to have Richard's backstory, but we didn't learn a thing. We already knew Jacob made Richard immortal. We already knew Jacob was trying to contain the evil of MIB. We already knew MIB was trying to kill Jacob. We already knew Richard came to the island in chains on the Black Rock. This episode was another water-treading waste of time. Yet another "you're dead" and "we're in hell" misdirection that we know isn't true.

The wave that broke the statue and pushed the ship inland are the only two revelations to previous mysteries. Richard's past was just more irrelevant details. I was honestly hoping there was more to Richard. Why give him immortality and no one else? It was completely random and meaningless. There was nothing special about Richard. Just another guy brought to the island.

ditto ditto ditto. I saw all this coming from the richard ep at least 3 seasons ago. Nothing new or suprising except the wife bit. Only surprise was Hurley talking to the wife; a very moving scene. Nestor; great acting, was like a totally different character, but a whole half hour on the black rock?! I was hoping for more backstory and yes, I also was expecting Richard to be from the roman days or something. Other than that, it was an ok ep; rather disappointing for a character backstory we were waiting to see for half a decade. I'm still considering this the worst season of the bunch and maybe the second best ep of this season. All this build up with mediocre stories and bs flash sideways (thankfully none of that crap this episode) is making this a ho hum last season for what was the best series on TV.

[I'm Murrin]

In my rewatch I'm quickly coming to the conclusion that season 4 was the best season, simply by having a lot of very good individual episodes.

[Zarathustra]

Except for the first half of season two, I think it's been getting better and better until now. Season 5 was the best, in my opinion (though The Constant was the best episode, hands down.) I have a feeling they're going to knock it out of the park by the end, and the beginning of this season will be forgotten like the beginning of season 2. I still have hope.

Back to ghosts vs Smokie . . . this is an important mystery, integral to the show. It holds the key to the plot, because it shows where characters were simply manipulated by MIB, or dealing with their own past and personal demons.

There does seem to be some logic to it, as Murrin noted, with Smokie only taking the form of dead bodies on the island itself. That seems to have been the importance of the entire season 4/season 5 loop: to get Locke's body back on the island so MIB could impersonate the one person who could talk Ben into killing Jacob . . . Ben's replacement, the one he was jealous enough to kill, the one who could be healed, who could talk to Jacob, who made him irrelevant. Ben's hatred, his sacrifice (daughter), and ultimately his guilt for killing Locke put him in the precarious state where he was the only one ideally suited to kill Jacob. And that's why Locke had to die, and his body be brought back, so MIB could take his form and complete his goal.

And that's why the Others burned their dead. That's an important clue.

However, there are anomalies. If the Others knew MIB could impersonate their dead, why didn't Ben immediatel suspect Flocke? How did MIB impersonate Isabella? (In fact, how was it possible for Smokie to be heard outside the boat while Isabella was inside???) Does Hurley see dead people, or Smokie? Can Smokie appear off-island (because Jack and Hurley see their dead off-island)?

[ItisWritten]

We did learn that prior to Richard's arrival, MIB hadn't simply sent someone to kill Jacob. . .

Did we learn that? How do you know no one else was sent to kill Jacob?

I suppose this is just a leap by me. But the look on Jacob's face implied to me that this was new. Keep in mind that Jacob wasn't interacting once he got his candidates to the island. Having to kill them if they were determined would defeat his intent. Thus the departure, in appointing Richard as his doorman or, if you will, a buffer between BLocke pointing the pawns at Jacob.

. . . , and Jacob had left all his candidates to fend for themselves.

Jacob still pretty much left all his candidates to fend for themselves, even after Richard.

True, but without Richard and the Others, BLocke would have continued to push candidates at Jacob. And though the candidates were usually ignored, Jacob did interfere with the Others through Richard.

We haven't been shown that Richard has ever helped in the slightest (THAT would have been an interesting revelation). Honestly, what has Richard done besides stand around a be a mystery? He helped Locke one time, by revealing Sawyer's past. But anyone with Sawyer's file could have done that. In fact, after Richard, Jacob seems to have increased his interference with his candidates, taking an interest in each one personally, visiting them and (possibly) saving Locke's life. He talked Ilana into her task of protecting the candidates. So what was left for Richard to do? His immortality was a big waste.

The visits are what BLocke refers to as manipulations, the means that they are drawn to the island. I don't think that has ever changed. Richard's task (it seems) was to keep the candidates away from Jacob. Or at least until Jacob died. Since then, he's been getting around the island much more. Maybe he's just been following Hurley.

I suppose I was hoping that Richard was a LOT older, like someone from ancient Egypt. Someone who knew the statue builders (another mystery that better get explained!).

Prepare for disappointment. I have numerous pet theories, which will probably be wrong. I'll settle for getting one right.

[ItisWritten]

If the Others knew MIB could impersonate their dead, why didn't Ben immediatel suspect Flocke? How did MIB impersonate Isabella? (In fact, how was it possible for Smokie to be heard outside the boat while Isabella was inside???) Does Hurley see dead people, or Smokie? Can Smokie appear off-island (because Jack and Hurley see their dead off-island)?

For that matter, how was Ben doubly duped by the impersonation of Alex, who specifically told him to do what Locke wanted?

I don't think Ben knew anything of consequence about Jacob or BLocke. He went to face Smokie and justice, accepting Alex's words as if they came from her. Perhaps Richard was the keeper of those secrets, and on his word (and Jacob's) they burned some of their dead--specifically candidates?

I'm thinking one of the 'rules' is that Smokie was known as a dispenser of justice, and when someone presents themselves--as Eko did, even unwittingly--Smokie is entitled to act however he wishes. Perhaps the connection of Smokie=impersonating the dead=BLocke being known was a violation of the 'rules' between Jacob and BLocke?

That BLocke has now revealed his identity to Sawyer means that the rules have changed. Uh, if there is such a rule.

[I'm Murrin]

He revealed his identity to Richard two hundred years earlier, when he sent him to kill Jacob. He's not really been seen to hide it that much when he didn't need to ("you talk to me as if I were your brother", for example).