Kevin's Watch

And here I was thinking he liked noodles...

Someone above wrote that we "know" Linden isn't the first Unfettered One.
We do?
Where is that established?
the fact that she is the first Unfettered shatters a preconception I have. But I don't take that to mean it is changed an established fact.
I got the feeling from First Chronicles that the Unfettered were a phenom that came about under the New Lords, based primarily on Mhoram saying too many of the best of the Loresraat taking the Rites of Unfettering in the last generation.
But that's just something I read into it. Not what the book says.
I don't understand why the different story between The haruchai (the whole story) and the Elohim over the Guardian of the One Tree is such a problem. Elohim are self-serving SOBs. Problem solved.

SGuilfoyle1966 wrote:Elohim are self-serving SOBs. Problem solved.

Amen to that!

SGuilfoyle1966 wrote:the fact that she is the first Unfettered shatters a preconception I have. But I don't take that to mean it is changed an established fact.
I got the feeling from First Chronicles that the Unfettered were a phenom that came about under the New Lords, based primarily on Mhoram saying too many of the best of the Loresraat taking the Rites of Unfettering in the last generation.
But that's just something I read into it. Not what the book says.

I had the same feeling. But I looked into it just now, as I was about to mention it, and saw your post. Atiaran says, "But I have heard the Rites of Unfettering. A hymn is sung." Free - Unfettered - Shriven - blah blah blah. Maybe they Rites and hymn are from the First Ward. No way to know for sure, but it's certainly possible.

Maybe they developed the Rites etc to fit the concept, as explained by the Theomach?

That's a good point. If the idea of the Unfettered was planted by the Theomach, then this would argue that it was picked up and codified by the Old Lords. It doesn't make as much sense that the idea of them would survive until the time of the New Lords and only then be ritualized.

Do most of you take the word Shriven to mean cut loose from the ties that bind these to normal society?

Or, as I do, now that I'm older and have come across it more in my lapsed Catholic yearnings, to mean forgiven of your sins after unburdening them?

They say there were detailed "rites" involved, and the best of the Loresraat went during Mhoram's time.

It was almost like being given an ahead of the time plenary indulgence, if that's the meaning attached to it.

I tend to equate Shriven with Gelded

Good catch!

Shriven does imply that you've confessed your sins and/or have performed penance for them.

In the case of the Song of the Unfettered, I think it's meaning is more along the lines of "unburdened from guilt or obligation".

wayfriend wrote:Good catch!

Shriven does imply that you've confessed your sins and/or have performed penance for them.

In the case of the Song of the Unfettered, I think it's meaning is more along the lines of "unburdened from guilt or obligation".

I agree, I don't think there was an expectation of confession involved (mainly because I don't see the people of the Land as sinners. )

Yep, I agree. In fact I never knew of the christian meaning of the word until today

It was a requirenment of Knighthood to be 'shriven' prior to investiture. the method was to stay awake at prayer all night confessing sins and purifying the soul prior to embarking on the path of knighthood. It was also used in the same manner prior to coronation as King. However this is from the idealised knights as envisaged by Cressien de Troyes.

Yes, but shriving is not limited to knights and kinds. Shriving is synonymous with the Catholic sacrament of confession.

mmmmm.. I'm shriving to understand all this..

The meaning of the Mahdount's name is finally revealed!!!

In the Gradual Interview, Donaldson wrote:Ian Chadwick: Hi Stephen,

Now that the Mahdoubt has giggled her way off stage, apparently for good (she'll be missed), I feel safe to ask what her name means.

All the other Insequent have meaningful names (he states confidently, based on the massive sample of three individuals). Harrow isn't too obscure - a tool for breaking earth prior to sowing; Theomach can be easily constructed from its parts - 'God warrior'; and a trip to my dictionary gives Vizard as a mask. What about Mahdoubt? Ma = Mother + redoubt = stronghold? Or doubt as in uncertainty? To be sure, the Mahdoubt doesn't seem to believe herself infallible, but she doesn't lack for confidence in her decisions. Maybe I'm complicating the issue unnecessarily by wanting to pronounce her name to rhyme with 'boot' rather than 'shout', but neither of the above alternatives sit well. And tickling the back of my mind is a hazy memory from the original Dune trilogy of an elderly Fremen housekeeper who made vaguely prophetic statements and then vanished from the story, and who had a similar name. I don't own a copy of Dune to check this out.

Finally, let's hear it for Linden Avery. Give me an 'L'! Give me an 'I'! ... etc. She's a legend!

Thanks for everything - roll on 2010!

Ian

Spoiler

I can appreciate your curiosity/frustration. But for me, names pretty much always start with *sound*. If the sound turns out to be a real word--and if that word has an apt meaning ("Sunder")--so much the better. For the sake of how a name sounds to me, however, I'll reject all other considerations. So the fact that the Mahdoubt (which I pronounce to rhyme with "redoubt") is the only known Insequent who appears not to have used a real word (or words) is pretty much a coincidence.

HowEVER: since we're in the "spoiler" section anyway.... I'll admit that I was still in the process of developing my ideas about the Insequent when I first brought the Mahdoubt on stage. If my working methods were different, she also might have found herself with a "real" name. In addition, I'll confess that I was explicitly influenced by the Shadoubt Mapes (I can't check the spelling because I can't find my copy of "Dune"). I love that name, as well as the character's air of mystery when she enters the story.

(05/14/2008)

Earlier, someone suggested that Kasseren might have consorted with a Insequent bring on his appointment. This in turn brought about the hatred of the Elohim by the Insequents. (by in large) But now after a time there's one thing that doesn't ring true with that assesment.

Esmer.. He's aligned with his Elohim line than the Insequent people. (if his GM was indeed an Insequent) He even tried to remove the Harrow from the timeline. (I wish he had suceeded) So it boats that his grandmother wasn't an Insequent.
So that question will probably remain unanswered and destined to legends.

The Insequents names is a bit difficult to intepert except for the Theomach.
The Harrow is an implement for cultivating the surface of the soil. Or in this particular case, The Land? Any deeper would have turn the Harrow into a Plow.
Vizard seems to be a variant of Wizard. (by one letter) or means a group of rogue Soul Reapers in the anime and manga series Bleach who have illegally acquired hollow powers. Or an archaic word meaning mask.
Madoubt no reference found.(except for Kevinswatch articles)

Ur Dead wrote:Earlier, someone suggested that Kasseren might have consorted with a Insequent bring on his appointment. This in turn brought about the hatred of the Elohim by the Insequents. (by in large) But now after a time there's one thing that doesn't ring true with that assesment.

Esmer.. He's aligned with his Elohim line than the Insequent people. (if his GM was indeed an Insequent) He even tried to remove the Harrow from the timeline. (I wish he had suceeded) So it boats that his grandmother wasn't an Insequent.
So that question will probably remain unanswered and destined to legends.

That's a good point. He talks about the Dancers of the Sea, but never really says he "serves" them like he does Kassy and Linden. But at the same time, he's only aligned with one Elohim, not their whole race. He could just as easily have been serving this one theoretically Insequent woman, but not all of them. And remember, he doesn't exactly like his father's race either

Harrow also has the connotation of "harrowing" as in a frightening experience. Certainly the harrow/plow seems to be part of it, since he is wearing one... but the distinction between a harrow being used on the surface and a plow may not be relevant to his name.

I think that the reference to the Harrow being like a rake/plow etc is his lust for power. He wants to "scape away life" (forgive the cheesy-ness but I couldn't think of how to word it, lol.) and take the powerful artifacts, like some sort of homicidal human archeologist, hence why he wanted to kill linden and take the staff.

This name was invoked in First Chronicles, and just recently discussed in that forum. I was thinking, that Bodach Glas ounds like a good "true name" for an Insequent...

Only one problem with that, IS - he/she would've appeared to Birinair when the name was spoken.