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Posted: Wed Oct 01, 2003 1:44 pm
by Seafoam Understone
duchess of malfi wrote:You have only read a few chapters of six long books...if you would read further in the next two books you will learn much more about both Atiaran and Lena. Since you have read so little and no one wants to spoil the story for you, it makes it very difficult to talk to you about a lot of these issues.
Indeed, since SRD masterfully writes out full fleshed characters (yea even FOUL and the Ravers) there is much more to Atiaran and Lena than what is read in the LFB.

Posted: Wed Oct 01, 2003 2:13 pm
by Blue_Spawn
You misunderstand me. I'm not saying anything definite about any of the characters. I'm not judging things on the events to come. I'm simply looking over a detail, on its own. I'm not excluding any possibilities that have not yet been introduced.

Posted: Wed Oct 01, 2003 2:14 pm
by Landwaster
amanibhavam wrote:The point is, IMHO: SRD does not want us to forgive Covenant. He himself wouldn't want us to forgive him. That's not the point. The point is to accept him as he is, as he accepts the Land as it is.
Hear hear! Well said!

Posted: Wed Oct 01, 2003 2:30 pm
by Skyweir
I have intentionally not launched into my personal views on this thread to enable blue_spawn time to discover for themselves the joy of TCTC.

I would be surprised if any who loves .. and I mean LOVES .. TCTC .. hasn't come to the same cross-roads as blue_spawn describes .. and yet having read on sufficiently further hasn't also come to find great love for TC himself.

This may seem inconceivable to you blue_spawn .. and I can truly understand how it would be to you but there are TCTC journeys most TCTC fans have taken that HAVE resulted in this level of appreciation of this particular protagonist.

I have read all your comments and think that excellent points have been raised. I particularly liked amanibhavam's comments as for me they struck to the heart of this dilema created by SRD himself.

Personally, I dont despise TC for his rape of Lena. 8O Such a charge of rape would never in a million years hold water in a court of law in our world.

A vital element of SRD's work is how he provides a means for the reader to aquire empathy. Empathy not only for Lena but also for TC himelf.
'
As many have said, no one can say how they would react given all of TC's circumstances. In the second book and onward, which you have not gotten to yet blue_spawn, we get to see the extreme level of ostracism TC is subjected to, his absolute abandonment and abuses of the most vile nature.

The theme SRD introduces the reader to here .. is hate! SRD takes us on a journey into the very real world of hate .. and that journey is squarely in our world! How hateful humans can be toward each other gives me the greater cause for revulsionn .. imho.

Back to the rape of Lena ... as difficult as it may be to keep in perspective .. TC believed he was dreaming, believed this bizarre place and this young buxom girl was all part of an elaborate dream.

Who can blame him for that?? I cannot, it is not every day that whilst crossing a street one is transported to an entirely other wordly reality is it?

It is a paradox between TC's known reality and this strange unknown experience that is not in fact a reality to him.

In our world we assign excuses for those who commit crimes of all characters, and those excuses arise where there lies an element of insanity, or where ones actions are controlled or compelled by another and a select range of other scenarios where there can be seen a lack of intent to commit the crime charged, exists on behalf of the actor.

To me TC is not guilty of committing rape, he is guilty of not believing the Land was real .. a question that even today is still often debated ;) ..

and as believing or not believing in an other world or dimensional reality does not have place in any criminal code .. TC truly cant be blamed for failing to recognise that this Land was not a dream.

If it was a dream .. who here is able to control their dreams? I can only manipulate my dreams when a dream has shocked me so greatly that my dream state is altered and my partly awaken self .. now consciously tries to navigate a better outcome.

It is going to be hard for you to process this kind of thinking as you havent had the benefit of reading on to discover more about TC's conflict between his own world and this strange Land.

You may however recall that TC's time in the leperasaurium (sp?) was a time of warning for him with regards to the very real danger of insanity. TC struggles to deny the reality of the Land believing that if he doesnt .. it will only mean a surrender to insanity and despair to him.

TC lusted after young girls in his home town as mentioned earlier, and as hard as it may be to put yourself in his position, remember this is a man that has had his entire world stripped from him, he has been left impotent .. deprived all normal sexual feeling and sensation. Naturally thoughts of this nature consume some of his thinking. He is human afterall.

In his world he has indicated that he would .. if he had the potency to .. never act on such thoughts. But in a dream? .. rape was not a dark side of TC's mind imho .. TC clearly was an angry man, a powerless man .. keenly aware of his impotence and his inabilities .. in dreams we dream about all sorts of things; things we want, things we fear, things we cant do in reality, and all are often portrayed as bizarre abstract and fragmented illusion.

To me it is a harsh standard to hold someone accountable for acts done, thughts had, things said .. whilst in a dream state.

TC believed the Land was a dream and did not want to accept it was anything other than that ..

Hurtloam .. or whatever Lena annointed TC with .. to heal him .. gave him physical senstation .. feeling where for some years there had not been feeling.

A cruel yet desirable sensation .. a tease .. if you will ..

suddenly in this dream .. he can feel .. What an overwhelming sensation this must have been for someone deprived of feeling.

I know the Land is real, :wink: .. but I didnt know it straight away .. yet many readers reach this realisation over time .. some to this day argue its non-reality .. and still we expect TC to have been cognizant of this fact the moment he is transported to the Land.

Posted: Wed Oct 01, 2003 2:36 pm
by Furls Fire
Well said Sky!!! :) :) :)

Posted: Wed Oct 01, 2003 2:59 pm
by Blue_Spawn
Nicccceee~

But without getting into any more deep discussions, answer this (just because I am curious of people's own personal opinions):

Do you think that Covenant would not have done what he did if a relatively identical situation would have happened in "his real world?"

Posted: Wed Oct 01, 2003 3:08 pm
by duchess of malfi
It was not really possible for a similar situation to happen in our world...there was no "miracle cure" for his medical condition...

Posted: Wed Oct 01, 2003 3:58 pm
by W.B.
I can't decide what I think about the question of "in a relatively similar situation." It would be hard to achieve such circumstances in the "real world," so I doubt it.

But, to mention the issue of is Covenant a rapist, I'd agree with those that adress the definition of the word, since whether or not he is depends on the meaning assigned to it. I'm rather with those saying yes he is, simply because he did rape Lena. However, in my mind I think I differentiate between the spontaneous, uncontrolled nature of his crime in the same way U.S. law differentiates between manslaughter, unpremeditated murder, and premeditated murder. I'm not a legal type, but I'd call what he did unpremeditated rape. Unfortunately, we don't really have a way in English of differentiating between the act of, for example, stealing and the innate qualities that define a person ("he's a thief"). Sometimes the person becomes the crime and it's assumed that no matter what they'll just instinctively repeat it if given the opportunity, which I would argue against in Covenant's case.

Posted: Thu Oct 02, 2003 4:24 am
by Furls Fire
Here is my hero in action...

**SPOILER WARNING**

From White Gold Wielder, March to Crisis:
"I've come for you, Gibbon. For you. If you come out, I'll let the rest of the Riders live." You are more dangerous now than you've ever been. "Foul doesn't think you can beat me. He's using you to make me beat myself. But I don't care about that anymore. Either way, you're going to die. Come out and get it over with."

The words seemed to fail before they reached the end of the passage. Revelstone loomed above him like the corpse of a city which had been slain ages ago. The pressure of the sun drew a line of bitter sweat down his spine.

And a figure appeared in the end of the tunnel. Black against the reflection of the courtyard, it moved outward. Its feel struck soft echoes of crepitation from the stone.

Covenant tried to swallow--and could not. The desert sun had him by the throat.

A pair of hot pains transfixed his forearm. The scars gleamed like fangs. An invisible darkness flowed out of the passage toward him, covering his fire with the pall of venom. The sound of steps swelled.

Then sandled feet and the fringe of a red robe broached the sunshine; and Covenant went momentarily faint with the knowledge that his first gambit had failed. Light ran swiftly up the lines of the stark scarlet fabric to the black chasuble which formalized the robe. Hands appeared, empty of the characteristic rukh, the black iron rod like a scepter with an open triangle fixed atop it, which a Rider should have held. Yet this was surely a Rider. Not Gibbon: the na-Mhoram wore black. He carried a crozier as tall as himself. The habitual beatitude or boredom of his round visage was punctured only by the red bale of his eyes. The who came out to meet Covenant was not Gibbon.

A Rider, then. He appeared thick of torso, though his ankles and wrists were thin, and his bearded cheeks had been worn almost to gauntness by audacity or fear. Wisps of wild hair clung like fanacticism to his balding skull. His eyes had a glazed aspect.

He held his palms open before him as if to demonstrate that he had come unarmed.

Covenant wrestled dwon his weakness, fought a little moisture into his throat so that he could speak. In a tone that should have warned the Rider, he said. "Don't waste my time, I want Gibbon."

"Halfhand, I greet you." The man replied. His voice was steady, but it suggested the shrillness of panic. "Gibbon na-Mhoram is entirely cognizant of you and will waste neither time nor life in your name. What is your purpose here?"

Impressions of danger crawled between Covenant's shoulderblades. His mouth was full of the copper taste of fear. The Rider's trunk appeared unnaturally thick; and his robe seemed to move slightly of it's own accord as if the cloth were seething. Covenant's scars began to burn like rats gnawing at his flesh. He hardly heard himself reply, "This has gone on too long. You make the whole world stink. I'm going to put a stop to it."

The Rider bared his teeth--a grin that failed. His gaze did not focus on Covenant. "Then I must tell you that the na-Mhoram does not desire speech with you. His word has been given to me to speak, if you will hear it."

Covenant started to ask, What word is that? But the question never reached utterance. With both hands, the Rider unbelted the sash of his robe. In prescient dread, Covenant watched the Rider open his raiment to the sun.

From the line of his shoulders to the flex of his knees, his entire body was covered with wasps.

Great yellow wasps, as big as Covenant's thumb.

When the light touched them, they began to snarl.

For one hideous moment, they writhed where they were; and the Rider wote them as if he were one of the Sunbane-warped, made savage and abominable by corruption. then the swarm launched itself at Covenant.

In that instant, the world went black. Venom crashed against his heart like the blow of a sledgehammer.

Black fire; black poison; black ruin. The flame raging from his ring should have been a s pure and argent as the metal from which it sprang; but it was not, was not. It was an abyss that yawned around him, a gulf striding through the air and the ground and the Keep to consume them, swallow the world and leave no trace. And every effort he made to turn the dark fire white, force it back to the clean pitch of it's true nature, only raised the blazed higher, widened the void. Swiftly, it became as huge as the hillside, hungry for ruin.

Linden was not shouting at him. If she had torn her heart with screams, he would not have been able to hear her. She was too far away, and the gathering cataclysm of his power filled all his senses. Yet he heard her in his mind--heard her as she had once cried to him across the Worm's aura and the white ring's eruption. This is what Foul wants!--felt the remembered gasp of her arms as she had striven to wrest him back from doom. If he let his conflagration swell, they would all die, she and the others he loved and the Land he treasured, all of them ripped out of life and meaning by blackness.

The strain of self-mastery pushed him far beyond himself. He was driven to a stretched and tenuous desperation from which he would never be able to turn back--a hard, wild exigency that he would have to see through to its conclusion for good or ill, ravage or restitution. But the simple knowledge that he would not be able to turn back and did not mean to try enabled him to strangle the destruction pouring from him.

Abruptly, his vision cleared--and he had not been stung. Thousands of small, charred bodies still smoked on the bare ground. Not one of the wasps was left to threaten him.

The Rider remained standing with his mouth open and his eyes white, miraculously unscathed and astonished.

Covenant felt no triumph: he had gone too far for triumph. But he was certain of himself now, at least for the moment. To the Rider, he said, "Tell Gibbon he had his chance." His voice held neither doubt nor mercy. "Now I'm coming in after him."
Oh, how I LOVED this scene!! His power black, corrupted by venom, and yet he MASTERS it!! Leaves the Rider standing!! His determination to rid the Land that he loves of this vile Sunbane helps him master even poisoned power! :) :)

COVENANT ROCKS!!! :D :D

Posted: Thu Oct 02, 2003 4:46 am
by Skyweir
W.B. wrote:I'd call what he did unpremeditated rape. Unfortunately, we don't really have a way in English of differentiating between the act of, for example, stealing and the innate qualities that define a person ("he's a thief"). Sometimes the person becomes the crime and it's assumed that no matter what they'll just instinctively repeat it if given the opportunity, which I would argue against in Covenant's case.
interesting pov W.B. .. however I have to say that un-premeditated rape and rape are both rape .. and the problem we are having addressing this issue revolves not around the act .. but imho .. the character of TC.

I do not believe TC would ever have acted on such an impulse in his own reality .. Regardless of our personal beliefs concerning his actions in the Land .. he may have entertained thoughts about women and even young girls .. but TC ironic as it may sound .. TC possessed integrity.

I await the flaming responses .. but as outraged as we may be about poor Lena .. TC did believe he was dreaming .. and in ones imagination we are capable of exploring all sorts of scenarios .. things we would never realise in our conscious awake life ..

I often dream of flying .. this is a desirable dream for me to have .. yet in my conscious awake self .. I would never leap into the air believing I would not fall .. because I am fully aware of the laws that govern my temporal existence .. gravity would cause me to fall .. and no doubt fall hard! :?

I realise this is not entirely analogous to TC's treatment of Lena .. but in his conscious awake existence TC is acutely cognizant of the laws that govern society .. and he is fully conversant with acceptable and unacceptable modes of behaviour .. I do not believe he would act on a similar desire if the circumstances miraculously availed him of it ..

as for labelling a criminal by his crime .. I agree this is by and large unreasonable .. because almost anyone can make a mistake .. even just once .. yet we do assign these labels.

I agree .. TC is not a rapist .. He never repeated this act .. and once he realised its reality .. he bore that personal self-imposed ..
stigma of that label .. all the remainder of his days :( No one could have punished him more than he punished and loathed himself .. I dont think he ever forgave himself nor did he want anyone else to forgive him .. because he personally felt so tormented, unworthy and undeserving of forgiveness.

Posted: Thu Oct 02, 2003 6:20 am
by [Syl]
Well, I think technically, even though I'm not sure this term was around in the 70s, it was date rape. She took him away from the town, she asked him about his love life, made innocent advances, etc. She was like a girl who, wanting something to drink, cracked a hole in a dam, but instead of the trickle she expected, the whole thing collapsed upon her...
Spoiler
and in a very real sense, washed her away
Anyway, just technicalities and details. Doesn't change what happened.

Posted: Thu Oct 02, 2003 6:23 am
by duchess of malfi
Lord Sky said:
I await the flaming responses
As I seem to be saying everywhere in what seems to be every forum these days :? :

Everyone has a right to express their opinion here.

If people who do NOT like a book or a character have that right, certainly the people who DO like book or a character also have that right.

Posted: Thu Oct 02, 2003 11:15 am
by Blue_Spawn
By the way Thomas acts, it seems more like he's rejecting to believe the reality, rather than believing it is a dream. In the beggining perhaps, but even later on, as you get into his thoughts, there are a lot of hints of his rejection. In any case, wouldn't he know that dreams usually don't last that long in such detail. Or that, 99% of the time, you wake up automatically the first time you realise you are dreaming within in a dream. Certainly, by the time he ravishes Lena he is not misguided but in denial.

Also, we've been discussing Thomas and accusing him. What about Lena herself? Didn't she have the power to stop when she had the chance? Or even cease making moves on him and giving all sorts of hints. I'd say she dug in her own hole.

Posted: Thu Oct 02, 2003 11:32 am
by KaosArcana
Blue_Spawn:

By the way Thomas acts, it seems more like he's rejecting to believe the reality, rather than believing it is a dream. In the beggining perhaps, but even later on, as you get into his thoughts, there are a lot of hints of his rejection. In any case, wouldn't he know that dreams usually don't last that long in such detail. Or that, 99% of the time, you wake up automatically the first time you realise you are dreaming within in a dream. Certainly, by the time he ravishes Lena he is not misguided but in denial.
I've had some pretty detailed dreams myself, but I have to admit that
I can't imagine a dream as vivid and intense as what Covenant
experienced in the Land ...
Also, we've been discussing Thomas and accusing him. What about Lena herself? Didn't she have the power to stop when she had the chance? Or even cease making moves on him and giving all sorts of hints. I'd say she dug in her own hole.
Lena never dreamed in a million years that anyone would ever hurt
her in that way. She grew up in a world where violence just didn't
happen. She saw Covenant as Berek Reborn ... and could no more
conceive of being assaulted by Berek than most American women could ever imagine being raped by George Washington if he somehow came to
life in the modern age.

And as for resisting, by the time she began to realize what was
happening, Covenant had already begun to rape her.

She was clearly infatuated with Covenant, and I have to say that I
think that she very well might have willingly slept with Covenant if
he had attempted to seduce her.

Still, Lena wasn't digging a hole. She wasn't flirting with Covenant.
She had a schoolgirl crush on him. And she paid dearly for it.

Posted: Thu Oct 02, 2003 11:37 am
by Blue_Spawn
Why is it that these school girls always go for the older men? Thomas must be like 120 or something. And he was a jerk too. Never really said a single good thing to her when she met him. Bah, jackasses always win.

Posted: Thu Oct 02, 2003 11:40 am
by Guest
:|

Posted: Thu Oct 02, 2003 11:48 am
by Blue_Spawn
Oookay...

Posted: Thu Oct 02, 2003 12:12 pm
by CovenantJr
"Dream" is a deceptive word to use. Fortunately, I'm re-reading the First Chrons at the moment, so I'm up to speed on all this stuff 8) TC considers it more a delusion than a sleeping dream. At one point he likens it to sensory deprivation-induced hallucinations.

As for whether he would have committed such an act in the "real world", I say no. He raped Lena because he was overwhelmed. There were so many causes, stated by others above - but his confusion/distress had a significant impact. At that stage, he had no idea what the hell was going on. IMO, that was instrumental...

Posted: Thu Oct 02, 2003 1:32 pm
by Landwaster
Blue_Spawn wrote:Why is it that these school girls always go for the older men? Thomas must be like 120 or something. And he was a jerk too. Never really said a single good thing to her when she met him. Bah, jackasses always win.
Quite true on all counts. If TC hadn't been labelled as a legend reborn, he just would have been a grumpy old bastard to Lena.

Posted: Thu Oct 02, 2003 1:40 pm
by [Syl]
Well, there was still that whole thing with him appearing on Kevin's Watch fighting an evil cloud, but yeah. Maybe just a really intriguing grumpy older guy.