Scientists attempt to disprove God’s existence

[ZefaLefeLaH]

Why can't we have a world where the people who believe can have their afterlife, and those who don't can have their oblivion?
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This is close to what I believe. You said that if we KNEW that God existed then we could not have faith. And that's true. The angels that once lived in heaven KNOW God. That is why they had ONE choice. We have FAITH and that is why we have INFINITE choices within the frame of our lives to believe in Him.

Because I believe this way, I view that the demons who were once the angels, will be destroyed forever in hell. But the humans will burn according to their evil. Inotherwords, I believe that it would be absolutely insane for God to create my Dad, who isn't saved and although did no "good" works for God must die forever and ever in agony just as Hitler would die. So I propose that my Dad would burn up fairly quickly, but that Hitler would last awhile.

In fact, the Christians have their wood, hay, and stubble burned away before they are embraced to enter heaven. So the only thing that keeps us from burning forever & ever is that the bad burns up. So for humans it burns up. At least this would be a fathomable sense of justice. To believe in eternal damnation for people is to believe in an ultimate cruelty from a so-called loving God. Pour burning sugar on your hand. It will burn for a very long time. But that's just a day or so of extreme pain, not a month, a year, a billion years, a billion, billion trillion, google, vigintillion years. That's not justice, that's insanity.

So I believe God does love us and removes us from existence because there's nothing worth saving and everything is tainted, unless Jesus's sacrifice cleans the soul and saves us from ourselves.

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But you're still saying that its down to god. I was thinking more along the lines of everyone gets what they believe they're going to get; which may also be essentially unfair, as the people who would deserve hell, if there is one, are unlikely to think that they do.

IMO, "heaven" and "hell" are christianity's carrot and stick, nothing more.

They don't serve any purpose, if they exist as explained to us. As you say, what loving god would condemn me to an eternity of torment, for the unthinkable sin of not believing in him, regardless of how I've lived my life?

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[ZefaLefeLaH]

That's true, I'm still saying that God is in control.

This is a contention that many people have with having God exist. Even Satan wants total control and wants to be god.

The problem is that you cannot explain God and not have God at the same time. Just like in life we are always responsible for our actions, to our mother & father at first, then to the law later, even the President of the USA has to answer to congress and the house of representatives. There are a lot of things that office hold, but ultimately no one is truly free of responsibility. So living under God isn't really so big a step. We live under law. We live by the rules of society and under our own rules and that of our wives and husbands. We don't normally run about cheating on them. We live by the rules of marriage, or most do anyway. We live by the law of the land, or most do anyway. Those that don't run the risk of getting crabs, AIDS, prison time, or being flat out killed. There is a form of justice for those who are judged by man, nature, or God.

I just don't believe that justice would = eternity in hell for any human who ever lived. People aren't capable of the kind of evil deserving for that. That type of evil comes from living with knowledge of God's existence and denying Him even though you have complete knowledge. Those who don't know Him or fail to have faith can't be punished like the angels who lived in heaven. It's a completely different matter.

Anyway, this is what I believe when I'm not being such a zeph.

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But why do we have to posit god? Why are these laws more important if they orginate from some supreme being, than if we had made them up for ourselves, knowing that it was the "right" thing to do?

I have responsibility, but ultimately only to myself. Is the threat of god supposed to make us more accepting of our responsibilities?

I obey any law that I find reasonable, and ignore those that I find obnoxious. It's got nothing to do with god. Nothing about the way that I live my life does.

Would murder be right if god hadn't said it wasn't?

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[ZefaLefeLaH]

Would murder be right if god hadn't said it wasn't?

Killing is acceptable in certain situations. War, self-defense, even driving over someone while drunk is more acceptable than driving over someone while sober. Killing a prostitute isn't as big a deal as killing a priest or politician. Killing a baby is a crime of the highest proportion, but killing an unborn baby is completely acceptable unless it was done away from an abortion clinic, then it's again reprehensible.

God says homosexuality is wrong, but in practice it is wrong to despise homosexuality.

But God also says that beastiality is wrong, and in practice we find these people to be hideous examples of inward ugliness.

I don't think God says that necrophelia is wrong, and it took California this long to make it illegal. Up to now, all they could do is charge someone with breaking and entering; and if they worked there, not even that.

I think that what the Bible does for us is to give us a moral standpoint about what is right and wrong. Our society might not exactly mirror that moral standpoint, but it is much of what we based our legal morality.

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Sure, Killing is acceptable in certain situations, but I was specifically talking about Murder. The commandment, in the original Hebrew is "Thou shalt not murder", a small, but crucial difference.

Absolutely, the Bible offers many reasonable and sensible rules for a "good" society. After all, you shouldn't have children by your sister because it's good genetic sense.

And sure, perhaps at one time, the easiest way of making people follow these sensible rules was by saying some supreme being had laid them down as law.

But that doesn't mean that god (even if he existed) has anything to do with it. We have based our "morality" on dogmatic principles, and not on what is actually there. Examples abound of mistranslation, both accidental and deliberate, many of which have caused great damage.

The Hebrew of the verse in Leviticus condemning witches actually translates as not permitting poisoners to live, which strikes me as a pretty good idea. Instead, one mistranslation later, and it caused the burning times, and thousands of harmless people were tortured and murdered.

My problem is not necessarily with the concept of god, but with the uses that humans put god to. Religion, especially the organised sort, has very little to do with god, and plenty to do with man.

My personal favourite verse is John 10:34, in which Jesus tells the people, "It is written in your own law that you are gods".

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[ZefaLefeLaH]

And my statement about California just now adopting a law against necrophelia is a good example about how society could not have come up with elementary views of what is wrong and what is right. I mean if it takes 200 years to realize that humping corpses is a bad thing and should be punished, then maybe the problem isn't with God but with society itself.

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Why should it be punished?

It's not as though anyone is being hurt by it. All that it offends is our sense of decency. Nothing else. And if our moral standpoint originates from the bible, why do we find it offensive even though it says nothing about necrophilia?

[ZefaLefeLaH]

Because the corpse was once your mother, father, sister, brother, son, daughter. We ought not let someone desecrate our loved ones simply because they can no longer feel it. If we find out about it, it hurts those that loved and respected the person that is dead and helpless to defend themselves or have a say in the matter at all.

Other than that, it's just plain sick.

Eating someone's amputated arm is one thing, putting yourself inside of a dead person for pleasure is on a whole other level of disgusting.

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I don't disagree with you. But that's exactly what I'm saying. It's only an offence to our sensibilities. Physically, no-one is hurt. I doubt that the dead person cares.

Would you be equally offended if it was once his brother/sister/father/whatever instead of yours?

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[A Gunslinger]

You guys are the limit. Interesting debate.

Back to the question: I have no problem with the world of science trying to proove or disprove the existence of any God.

Tje knowledge to be gained in the world of science,theology, philosohy, etc. in such a search will indeed proove valuable no matter the outcome!

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Very True.

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