Kevin's Watch

VF and Idlewilder - I love a heated debate! I'm not sure at what point your conversation became personal, but I don't think that either of you deserves to be "banned". It usually takes much more than what I've read here.

I respectfully suggest that you owe each other an apology. Surely on a website as great as this one, there is room for both of you.

I apologize to Idlewilder for making personal remarks in the heat of argument: to be more precise, for responding with personal remarks to what I perceived as personal attacks. (I still believe that many of Idlewilder's remarks were intentional personal insults; but that does not entitle me to respond in kind. It was inappropriate and inexcusable of me.)

I nevertheless expect to be permanently banned from Kevin's Watch. As the saying goes — I've heard it hundreds of times, and the more sincere my apologies have been, the louder it's been shouted at me — 'Sorry don't feed the bulldog!' It seems unnatural to me to hope that any apology of mine will be accepted.

I nevertheless cling to the wish that someone would pardon me for my part in this unseemly brouhaha. I shall remember Kevin's Watch fondly, and regret that I will not be permitted to come here anymore.

If the readers at the Watch can forgive Covenant for the rape of a child, then certainly they can also forgive you for a much less tragic event.

Idlewilder's posts were provocative, and could easily be construed as attacks.
The arguments themselves, IMHO, were belittled by the way in which they were presented. In all liklihood, that was not meant to be conveyed in the post, either in your early answers, or his early posts.

It is foolish to believe that an individual's personality will not come through in his/her posts; and the rare moments when those personalities clash should not be a platform for punishment.

You have proffered a genuine apology, in all sincerity, and have also explained why you responded as you did. I believe that is enough. My hope is that the two of you can continue your discussions, but on a less threatening and personal level.

After all, this is a discussion forum. As long as we keep it that, and do not allow ourselves to get sucked in to the passion of our responses, we are all OK.

I think we'll see you both here as long as you wish to be.

dlbpharmd wrote:VF and Idlewilder - I love a heated debate! I'm not sure at what point your conversation became personal, but I don't think that either of you deserves to be "banned". It usually takes much more than what I've read here.

I respectfully suggest that you owe each other an apology. Surely on a website as great as this one, there is room for both of you.

I agree with dlbpharmd.

VF and Idlewilder, the Watch is like family - and sometimes family argue. While it is distressing to see spirited debate become personal attacks it sometimes happens. I am glad that VF has apologized (sincerely, I believe) and I expect Idlewilder will do likewise.

As to being "banned", I don't think either of you deserve that. After all, you don't exile a family member for the occasional spat! I for one look forward to future spirited (but not hurtful) debates from both of you!

Great stuff VF and Idle. You are obviously both very passionate about literary criticism and I found this thread very engaging. The Watch would be a poorer place if either of you were to leave.

Plus it's wonderful to see such a heated exchange without being smack in the middle of it!

It probably wasn't the best example, but the point was that Runes did not conclude, it just ended. Stopped in what might have been mid-chapter, if we were privy to the whole work (as one Tolkienesque novel).

This is also true of The Wounded Land. To be sure, the ending feels somewhat complete since we had just been through the miraculous catharisis of Covenant’s caamora for the dead of Coerci, but plot-wise this only ties up a loose end from the First Chronicles; it does not resolve anything at all in the Second. Contrast this with the ending of The One Tree which ties up the quest for the One Tree quite finally.

Life is too short to hold a grudge for very long. I can appreciate VF's passion (i feel it myself), and will concede I may have added fuel to a fire I kindled in the first place. In the end, I don't want to see anyone banned from the site--- it's too cool a place. And I hope all will remember it is my love of the works of SRD that led to my criticisms in the first place.

So, VF, sorry if I came across as an ass (I will, however, own up to argumentative lout--- my wife loves it, and I think I've gained a new "nickname").

In the end, I hope VF, and the rest of the Watch, will find me less odious. Mostly, it was all in good intellectual (more or less) fun.

Bygones.

Idlewilder wrote:Life is too short to hold a grudge for very long. I can appreciate VF's passion (i feel it myself), and will concede I may have added fuel to a fire I kindled in the first place. In the end, I don't want to see anyone banned from the site--- it's too cool a place. And I hope all will remember it is my love of the works of SRD that led to my criticisms in the first place.

So, VF, sorry if I came across as an ass (I will, however, own up to argumentative lout--- my wife loves it, and I think I've gained a new "nickname").

In the end, I hope VF, and the rest of the Watch, will find me less odious. Mostly, it was all in good intellectual (more or less) fun.

Bygones.

Thanks, Idlewilder. I am genuinely moved and touched by your apology. Few people, in my experience, have the grace to offer apologies, particularly when the other party has apologized first. Too many would rather

It was rude and unhelpful of me to express my opinion of your style of argument by calling you names. I should have confined myself to saying that you were putting your worst foot forward — which I still maintain. I let my friends talk to me that way, but they have to have made friends with me first. Clearly my responses affected you the same way. Perhaps we can agree to scrub the first impression and start over?

That bit about 'undergrad literary theory' still stings, though. I never studied English as an undergrad, nor had the opportunity. If you think I'm regurgitating what some prof or some textbook told me to parrot for an exam, by golly, you're thoroughly mistaken. I learned about literature the way it should be learned: by mud-wrestling with it in the gutter.

VF, please disregard the "undergrad literary theory remark"; it was unkind and unrepresentative of your obviously prodigous learning (not sarcasm), and said in the proverbial heat of the moment of the exchange.

Would offer a longer, more Hallmark-y moment, but the Simpsons is about to come on.

As for scrubbing this whole ugliness and first impressions...

My name is David. I look forward to getting to know you.

(Well, that was kinda Hallmark-y after all!)

Ah - apologies offered sincerely and accepted graciously. Makes me feel all warm and fuzzy inside.

Now, everybody join hands...

Kumbaya, my Lord,
Kumbaya.......

Idlewilder- I sent you and email with my reply. I just figured out how to scroll down far enough to post. I'n a newbie here. Anyway, I will be glad to be getting back to TC- I have had enough of Linden for a while myself. I liked the rest of the book, though. Same vivid descriptions- I could almost see it again like I could when I was 13.

It looks like better books are to come. I agree- I was an awful lot of Linden, and I was never that crazy about her(jealous maybe? LOL), but the end finally gave me hope- my heart started to pound,....... and we were left hanging. Again. Any idea for how long this time? Hopefully not another 10 or 15 years......

OOps- what am I doing wrong- trying to post this on the Runes board in response to your post.

_________________

Idlewilder wrote:So what was the climax in Runes, because I missed it? Was it the Waynhim handing over the Staff to Linden, or the chat in the Close. Either way, it was weak.

Um...what about Covenant coming back to life, and showing up with Jeremiah, who is responding? If that isn't climactic enough, then I think you may have missed just how much importance Linden place on Jeremiah after she lost Covenant, and how much she desperately wanted to find a way to communicate with him.

Personally, I felt the only thing missing from Runes of the Earth was death. In all the other books we lose someone: Variol, Tamarantha and Birinair in Lord Foul's Bane, Elena, Shetra and Verement, Hyrim and the Unhomed in The Illearth War, Lena and Foamfollower in The Power that Preserves, Memla in The Wounded Land, Seadreamer and Ceer and Heregrom in The One Tree and Honniscrave, Hollian, Caer Caveral and Covenant in White Gold Wielder.

However, at the end of Runes of the Earth, Stave, Liand, Mahrtiir, Esmer, Hami and all the Cords are still alive. This I felt lessened the impact of the book, but only slightly.

Runes of the Earth ireminded me of Forbidden Knowledge in a way. Not the most exciting book in the series, but still extremely good. Both focused on a single female who is forced to draw on more of their hiddn strength to save their son. And both are highly emotional, but in a very subtle way.

As I read Runes of the Earth for the second time, I a making an effort to tune myself in to Linden's emotions more. This book is GOOD!

Sum sui generis
Vs

Variol, I addressed this earlier. I don't feel that Covenant’s “unexpected” appearance counts as a big enough revelation to hold the audience’s attention during the forthcoming three-year layoff (with two more such layoffs to follow).

SRD had more than telegraphed Covenant’s status in various interviews over the years (“now that the Law of Death and the Law of Life have been broken…”) Covenant had spoken to Linden through Anele. And the title of the series is The Last Chronicles of Thomas Covenant!!! Anyone who was blown away to find Thomas Covenant appearing in these Chronicles simply hadn’t been paying attention. Most of us had been (impatiently) waiting for the other shoe to drop for quite a while before that.

How many have the feeling that now that TC is on the scene, things can finally start happening? I know I do. So why did that moment have to be postponed until a point where nothing can be done about it for three years?

I used the comparison before that in unnecessarily lengthening all of Runes into an extended introduction, the book reads as The Wounded Land would read if all of it took place in Mithil Stonedown with Linden and Covenant only gaining Sunder’s aid and departing toward Revelstone at the very end of the book. That wouldn’t have been much of a book IMO.

Yes, the lack of action in general (which is often accompanied by death and/or serious injury in SRD’s works) was one of the things that left me less than satisfied with Runes. But it doesn’t have to include death. I thought the periodic Raver attacks on the dromond in TOT were gripping, even though no Giants or Haruchai were permanently harmed during the filming of this production. Those were good action sequences, as were the two grim attacks in the Second Chronicles, TC’s two confrontations with Gibbon, Nom vs. the Haruchai, the Lurker attacks in TWL, and so many others. What did Runes offer? Well there was this Ramen who got clawed by a kresh…

^ and the Demondim made a bit of an effort.

I think Rune may be a book which seems much better once the others are available. The set up is often not that exciting until you know the context. On the other hand there are plenty of books which provide set up AND tons of excitement.

As it was I thought Runes was compelling enough - but at least part of that was the anticipation.

As I said, this book reminds me quite a bit of Mirror of her Dreams, where Donaldson very carefully sets up the stage and characters for the action to come.

Right, Mordant's Need was one novel split into two parts published a year apart. The difference here is that TLCOTC are one novel split into four parts published over the course of a decade. You can't end an installment with as weak a whimper as Runes did when you're trying to hold an audience's attention for three, six, and nine years.

Thaale wrote:You can't end an installment with as weak a whimper as Runes did ....

While it may be frustrating, IMHO Runes did not end as weak a whimper!

While it may be frustrating, IMHO Runes did not end as weak a whimper!

Absolutely! The closest experience I have had with this is like the ending of The Empire Strikes Back or the ending of King's The WasteLands.

We really have to wait 3 more years? No way. You're right- is is like the Dark Tower books. Uugh- I'll have to get bifocals to finish them!