Kevin's Watch

Still, to make it seem you would be hurt if someone didn't choose your point of view is wrong, more so if that person is your son. It's emotional blackmail.

That's all well and good, but the fact of the matter is that unless he (or any other 16-year-old for that matter) is willing to tell his parents why he doesn't want to get Confirmed (not believing in the Trinity) and they agree that he shouldn't, then yes, they can (and should) compell him to go through with it.

Darth and ur-bane, do y'all have kids? I suspect you'd feel differently if you did.

Cail wrote:That's all well and good, but the fact of the matter is that unless he (or any other 16-year-old for that matter) is willing to tell his parents why he doesn't want to get Confirmed (not believing in the Trinity) and they agree that he shouldn't, then yes, they can (and should) compell him to go through with it.

Compell someone (I'm talking in general, not about Mhoram) doesn't believe in something to commit themselves to it, just because they believe he should? You think that's right? That says a lot about you, and not much to the good.

No, Cail. I do not have kids. But I wouldn't feel differently at all. (Yes...easy to say...but here's why:)
Growing up, I was lucky enough to have parents that allowed me to make my own choices when it came to religion.
Both of my parents are roman Catholics. My mother is still a practicing Catholic who attends church every Sunday, and who teaches in a Catholic school.
My father was intent on becoming a deacon in our parish. (He later had a "falling out" of sorts, and is not a deacon, nor a practicing Catholic)

While I was still in grade school, I was required to go to mass with the family on Sundays, and also attend religious education, in addition to being enrolled in Catholic school.
I was force-fed religion at every turn. BUT....at the same time, as Cho pointed out, I didn't have the maturity to question anything, and just took in what I was taught.

The real change came when I did grow up, when my mind started really questioning my so-called "beliefs." Coincidentally, this was around 14/15 years old.

Although disappointed at the time, my parents understood me. They understood that I did not have the strength of faith that they had at the time. I explained to them how I felt. They no longer forced me to go to Catholic school. I no longer had to go to RE or mass on Sundays.

It was a choice I made, one which they supported, albeit sadly.

My child would be treated in the same manner.

Darth Revan wrote:

Cail wrote:That's all well and good, but the fact of the matter is that unless he (or any other 16-year-old for that matter) is willing to tell his parents why he doesn't want to get Confirmed (not believing in the Trinity) and they agree that he shouldn't, then yes, they can (and should) compell him to go through with it.

Compell someone (I'm talking in general, not about Mhoram) doesn't believe in something to commit themselves to it, just because they believe he should? You think that's right? That says a lot about you, and not much to the good.

On this particular point, I am with Cail, and Cho, for that matter.
Without an understandable explanation as to why, he/she should be "compelled."

But once that explanation is given, the parent should respect the child's decision--whether they agree with it or not. (Of course I am not speaking of the "I would rather watch the tube" explanation that Cho referred to.)

Cho,

I don't think Mhoram has said his parents don't allow him to think for himself...quite the opposite, in fact. I think his issue is more about hurting his family's feelings by not participating in the confirmation.

She's hit the nail on the head, folks.

Darth,

You are totally missing the point here man. No one is forcing me to do it. That's the point! But at the same time, there is pressure simply because my family is itself Catholic. That's all.

Cail,

Your points on the family instilling their belief systems upon their child is well taken and I agree. Without such a practice, where would society be today?

ur-bane,

But once that explanation is given, the parent should respect the child's decision--whether they agree with it or not. (Of course I am not speaking of the "I would rather watch the tube" explanation that Cho referred to.)

I agree. The difference is between being respected for your decision and...well, agreeing with it, which my family obviously won't.

Darth Revan wrote:Compell someone (I'm talking in general, not about Mhoram) doesn't believe in something to commit themselves to it, just because they believe he should? You think that's right? That says a lot about you, and not much to the good.

Yeah right Darth. That's parenting. You make your kids eat vegetables because they're good for them whether they like it or not. Parenting is about doing what's best for your kids and making decisions for them, even and especially when it's things they don't want to do.

Ideally there's a dialogue when there are differences, but ultimately it's the parent's decision.

There's a difference between making your child eat vegetables and making him believe in something he might not want to. Should I really have to tell you that?

And who decides if religion is good for you anyway?

All parents push their kids in certain directions because they love them and want them to have good lives. I do not push my kids in religious ways -- to me religion is an extremely personal thing between someone and whichever God/s speak to their minds and hearts. (Though I would probably have a few choice things to say if they joined a weird cult or something ) But I do push them to be honest, honorable -- and to go to college.

Cail wrote: Darth and ur-bane, do y'all have kids? I suspect you'd feel differently if you did.

This question wasn't directed at me, but I have to interject anyway. I have a son, and I'm still VERY conflicted on this issue. I believe that the moral foundation I got as a child was dependent on religion as far as my parents were concerned. But I also believe that moral foundation can be imparted without religion.

I suppose the only aspect of religion that I abhor is the concept of "taking things on faith", whether you are christian, atheist, whatever. I will tell my son what I think with a clear caveat that he should think for himself and reach his own conclusions. Sheltering a kid from that can have disastrous results. When a kid finds out his parents concealed something from him, he doesn't care why, he just knows they basically lied to him.

I know a guy who was raised strictly baptist and bought 100% into it until his parents went just a little too far in trying to control him. He got accepted to a prestigious liberal arts college and they told him "No, you have to go to Bible College - we'll pay for that, but not a penny for you to go to that other school - they'll turn you into a liberal". Result was - he defied them, went off to the big school, and became a flaming liberal. But I'll argue to the death that nobody TURNS someone into something else - the people he met at college just gave him info and let him decide for himself, and thus he formed a much stronger bond with his love for knowledge, and his determination to affect change in the world through secular means, than he did with the stuff his parents force-fed him.

Similar thing happened with one of my punkins.

My Jessica was a good girl. Smart. Talented. Dependable.

Her parents were extremely holy roller-types. She wanted to go to a state university. They said they would not pay unless she went to this teeny little Christian college with incredibly victorian rules.

So, she joined the army. She spent a year in Afghanistan and did two tours in Iraq.

Thank God, she lived through it all.

Now she is married to a black hawk helicopter pilot and is going to college this fall.

Her time in the army, thank God! is up.

BUT, by trying to keep her inside a tiny shell that didn't suit her, her parents have lost her to a much larger world.

Her husband is from New York City.

So, parents should think hard, very hard, before they try to force feed their children anything.

I liked what Cail said about the discussion part. That at least gives the kid a chance to express him/herself. A good parent will listen and be willing to compromise.

There has to be a middle ground that satisfies both.

I could see saying to my son "You don't have to go to church, but I'd like you to spend some time with texts on religion/philosophy once a week, and we can talk about what you learn".

I woud hate to think he was refusing church just out of pure spiritual laziness.

bossk wrote: I suppose the only aspect of religion that I abhor is the concept of "taking things on faith", whether you are christian, atheist, whatever.

Well, here's one Christian that agrees with you.

It makes me pretty unpopular in certain circles, but I refuse to compromise on this.

I believe that every question deserves an answer. I can accept 'I don't know'... but never 'you just have to believe it'.

I believe if you've never questioned your faith, it's probably not that strong anyway. Even priests have to battle their human nature on a daily basis.

bossk wrote:I could see saying to my son "You don't have to go to church, but I'd like you to spend some time with texts on religion/philosophy once a week, and we can talk about what you learn".

I woud hate to think he was refusing church just out of pure spiritual laziness.

I think that's a good approach.

Forcing healthy food and forcing organised religion are completely different. I'm not in favour of forcibly compelling your child(ren) to adopt any particular religious or spiritual stance. As Duchess said, it's something very personal.

Yes, it's something very personal, but it's also something that should be passed on to your children. When they become adults, they can do as they please.

Well, we're going in interesting directions here, aren't we?

I think some good things have been said. Cail, while I certainly agree that it is a parent's job to instill a value system in their children, and I equally agree that you sometimes have to "make" your children do things that they don't want to, I too can't view that in the same light as "compelling" somebody to believe something. You can't control a person's beliefs.

Of course, it's easy at first, but I think its important to add that caveat, to give them the awareness that this is only one of all possible views, and that in the end, they'll have to make their own minds up.

Bossk's problem is one I often think about in terms of myself. I don't have kids yet, but I know its a problem I'm going to face when I do. My morals and Ethics have nothing to do with religion.

And when it comes right down to it, who's to say that we're right? That our way is the way for our children? Nobody. And sure, eventually they'll work out their own way. But better, I think, to encourage that long before it becomes inevitable.

It is an incredibly personal thing, and 16, especially Mhoram's 16, is plenty old enough to have started making up your mind.

I'm going to quote ol' Kahlil Gibran here again, because I think he has something both relevant and beautiful to add to this:

Kahlil Gibran wrote:And a woman who held a babe against her bosom said, "Speak to us of Children."

And he said:

Your children are not your children.
They are the sons and daughters of Life's longing for itself.

They come through you but not from you,
And though they are with you, yet they belong not to you.

You may give them your love but not your thoughts.
For they have their own thoughts.

You may house their bodies but not their souls,
For their souls dwell in the house of tomorrow, which you cannot visit, not even in your dreams.

You may strive to be like them, but seek not to make them like you.
For life goes not backward nor tarries with yesterday...

--Avatar

I have always loved that portion! Beautiful.

I love the line about how the children dwell in the house of tomorrow.

As have I. In fact, I think that was my first introduction to The Prophet, at about ten or so, when my parents read that particular portion of it to me.

And the fact that they very much "parented" under those guidelines is something I'll always be grateful to them for.

--Avatar

Avatar wrote:I think some good things have been said. Cail, while I certainly agree that it is a parent's job to instill a value system in their children, and I equally agree that you sometimes have to "make" your children do things that they don't want to, I too can't view that in the same light as "compelling" somebody to believe something. You can't control a person's beliefs.

I never said that parents could control what their kids think. But they can, and should control what they're taught. LM believes what he believes, and he's perfectly OK believing that. However, in the US, you are (for the most part) not legally able to make your own life decisions until you're 18.

I also humbly and respectfully submit that your outlook on this will change dramatically once you have kids of your own.