Kevin's Watch

mib doesn't have sun. jack has sun.

Agreed, and I was cornfuzzled at the idea MiB has her. However, it makes sense that Smokey could use Widmore's holding of Jin (remember Sun and Widmore have a history of Island related revenge arrangements) to force Sun to make "convenient decisions".

First half - Charlie's Hand, most blatant crossover/bleeding of timelines yet, especially considering Widmore's actions. Let's not forget that since Day 1, we've been shown Charlie's hands and what's written on them is prophetic (Late, Fate...)

The season redeemed itself with this ep. Prob only the second or third decent show this season and of course it is a Desmond ep, which are always the best of the bunch.

Ooh, and we're into the next act. Desmond knows, in both realities, what happened when Faraday set off the bomb. The Desmond on the island was acting pretty strangely, though, so I'm not sure what he's thinking.

I suspect that Widmore, given that he's brought a team of physicists with him and Desmond, intends to create another incident that will reverse the effects of the first one.

Meanwhile, Desmond in LA is going to show them flashes of their other life, and so far they've been of the strongly positive parts, so we'll have to see where that goes.

What makes Eloise so different? Why is she always aware - was it simply her closeness to the paradox? She talks about it as if there are defined rules, rules that clearly can be broken by anyone who starts to see the truth. She probably prevents people from breaking the rules simply to preserve the timeline she created. A change to Desmond's life in Flashes Before Your Eyes would have changed Faraday's and prevented him from creating his paradox in 1977. And in the successful creation of the alternate timeline, she has the result she spent her other life working on, her son is alive and happy, and Desmond interfering could result in the unmaking of it all.

The way Charles talks about things simply ceasing to exist, it sounds as though the problem is one of defining the actual timeline, as though, in the end, only one of the realities can continue to exist. And somehow that is connected to our friend the man in black escaping the island.

This episode was the first one all season that felt like a true Lost episode. Desmond, Penny, Faraday, Eloise . . . I've missed them. For some reason, these (and other) peripheral characters seem like the backbone of the series. I guess I'm just bored of Jack/Kate/Sawyer et al.

Finally, we feel like we're going somewhere.

So...the sound we keep hearing in switching between the alternate timeline - I used to think it sounded like a jet engine. Now that we have been introduced to the electromagnetic flux capacitor or whatever the hell the chamber they put Desmond in, I'm now convinced that is the sound we are hearing. And now it makes perfect sense. Extremely subtle, Lost guys.

So, does this mean that injured Sun is going to see flashes? And will all this be connected somehow to what happened when Sayid died?

I have to say, I'd never have guessed that there were going to be so many people aware, in one way or another, of the split. Widmore, Eloise, Daniel, Desmond, Charlie...I'd expected the bleeding to be more driven by the Jack/Sawyer/Kate group and catch up others...but it seems the opposite.

Vraith wrote:I have to say, I'd never have guessed that there were going to be so many people aware, in one way or another, of the split. Widmore, Eloise, Daniel, Desmond, Charlie...I'd expected the bleeding to be more driven by the Jack/Sawyer/Kate group and catch up others...but it seems the opposite.

That could be because Widmore, Eloise, Daniel, Desmond, and Charlie lost something very important to them as a result of the tampering with time. What I think is interesting is that Eloise might know of the split because in both timelines, she would have shot her son on the island, but for whatever reason, in this timeline she decided not to push her son to his doom... but she has got to understand at least in part the consequence of such a result, which could be that the alternate timeline is, in this aspect, unstable in of itself and depends on the existence of the original timeline. So, if MiB manages to escape and the original timeline is undone as a result, the alternate universe will no doubt be affected (probably destroyed) as well.

Did anyone else laugh when Charlie said (refering to the alternate universe) that "none of this matters"?

Murrin wrote:Desmond knows, in both realities, what happened when Faraday set off the bomb. The Desmond on the island was acting pretty strangely, though, so I'm not sure what he's thinking.

The way Desmond reacted to Sayid tells me he needs to get back to the other island where the other Losties are, where he can interact with them, just as the other Desmond plans to by getting the passenger list of 815. I'm very interested in how BLocke will react to Desmond.

Murrin wrote:Meanwhile, Desmond in LA is going to show them flashes of their other life, and so far they've been of the strongly positive parts, so we'll have to see where that goes.

I don't believe alternate Jack, Sayid, Claire and maybe Sawyer would be all that thrilled with what they see on the shoulda version. Hurley probably not either, if he really is as lucky as he says.

Murrin wrote:What makes Eloise so different? Why is she always aware - was it simply her closeness to the paradox? She talks about it as if there are defined rules, rules that clearly can be broken by anyone who starts to see the truth. She probably prevents people from breaking the rules simply to preserve the timeline she created. A change to Desmond's life in Flashes Before Your Eyes would have changed Faraday's and prevented him from creating his paradox in 1977. And in the successful creation of the alternate timeline, she has the result she spent her other life working on, her son is alive and happy, and Desmond interfering could result in the unmaking of it all.

In simplest terms, Eloise realized what Jack intended with the bomb and apparently embraced it. The alternate was having to raise her son so he could die at her hands. No wonder he ended up as a musician.

Murrin wrote:The way Charles talks about things simply ceasing to exist, it sounds as though the problem is one of defining the actual timeline, as though, in the end, only one of the realities can continue to exist. And somehow that is connected to our friend the man in black escaping the island.

This is the aspect that I don't get. Doesn't mean I think it's wrong. I need a few more episodes to wrap my brain around it.

ItisWritten wrote:In simplest terms, Eloise realized what Jack intended with the bomb and apparently embraced it. The alternate was having to raise her son so he could die at her hands. No wonder he ended up as a musician.

It's even stranger than all that. We saw in the episode The Variable that Eloise had already done just that, lived her life exactly the way she needed to to make sure Daniel came back and was shot, so that they would travel back and change things. She deliberately forced him to work on science instead of his music, pushed him away from girlfriends, and convinced him to join Widmore's freighter crew. She knew all along that she would kill him, but she did it to make sure he would travel back to 1977 and the bomb would be set off.

Which, now that I think about it, would not make sense at all if she believe that what they did failed. If, after the incident, life went on as normal with no apparent change to the life written in Daniel's journal, then one would think she'd asume they failed to change the future - so why push him toward that fate for something that won't work?

No, it all suggests that even from the beginning she knew that what they did at the Swan site worked. Which could explain why Charles knows about it, why he knows about Desmond, and what he is trying to do.

The question remains, how is Eloise in both realities aware of the paradox, and of the rules of paradox, while most other people are oblivious?


Edit: So far, there's a pretty consistent pattern of near-death provoking experience of the other reality. Juliet saw it when she was dying, Charlie while choking, Desmond while drowning. I'm going to start rewatching season 6 so far for more information, particularly things Sayid said while bleeding to death.

Orlion wrote:. . . Widmore, Eloise, Daniel, Desmond, and Charlie lost something very important to them as a result of the tampering with time.

Interesting distinction.

What I think is interesting is that Eloise might know of the split because in both timelines, she would have shot her son on the island, but for whatever reason, in this timeline she decided not to push her son to his doom...

Didn't she decide not to push her son to his doom because the island is underwater in that timeline? Daniel is not very old. Most likely he was born after 1977--or at least by the time he would be old enough make the choice between music and math would most likely be after 1977.

Zarathustra wrote:Didn't she decide not to push her son to his doom because the island is underwater in that timeline? Daniel is not very old. Most likely he was born after 1977--or at least by the time he would be old enough make the choice between music and math would most likely be after 1977.

Could be...don't know if she would know that such a thing had happened or would matter, especially if she wanted to maintain the integrity of time.

Another interesting question is how did Widmore and Eloise get off the island, then? It could be assumed that in this universe, they may not have had control over Dharma technology they had in the original timeline. With what we know, either they had somehow snuck aboard with other Dharma personnel that left the Island, or used the Frozen Donkey Wheel (which may have somehow sunk the island).

Another question: after she shot Faraday, did Eloise keep his journal? I ask because it might explain how Widmore know that Desmond had survived an electromagnetic event.

Watch The Variable again. Eloise knew exactly what she was setting up Daniel for when she made him into the person he became. The final scene with Eloise and Widmore (outside the hospital Desmond was taken to after Ben shot him) he talks about the sacrifices he has made for the island, and Eloise comes back with what she sent her son to ("He's my son too" in that scene was the first confirmation that he is Daniel's father)...

She was pregnant with Daniel when the Incident happened - that's why Richard didn't like her coming near the bomb, and why he stopped her going any further after they dismantled it, to get her to safety. (Trivia: The actress who played 1977 Eloise was also pregnant when filming those episodes.)

Murrin, knowing that her son would go back in time isnt' the same as knowing that Des survived an electromagnetic event.

I don't think it's a secret that Desmond survived turning the key. Even Penny was able to detect that event (which got the ball rolling in Widmore sending the freighter and Penny being on the scene to find the Oceanic 6). So they knew someone turned the key. Was it generally known that Des was on the island and in charge of that key? Well, Penny seemed to know. She must have got this from Wid or El. But that still brings up the issue of how they knew. Maybe it was because Hume visited El after getting "unstuck" in time (in the jewelry store), which made it obvious to her. But it does seem like she knew to expect him. Maybe you're right, Orlion.

Didn't Widmore ask Locke about it after Locke turned the Wheel? That would have been an easy way to learn.

I think Eloise would certainly have known that the island sunk. We're talking about the woman who knows how to track it.

Between Flashes Before Your Eyes, The Variable, and yesterday's episode, I'm convinced at this point that Eloise knew exactly what she was doing for the last 30 year,s and Widmore had learned some of it.

He knew Desmond was on the island, for example, because the people from the freighter had pictures of him and a bullshit story about Penny sending them. He likely knew beforehand that Desmond would end up on the island during his boat race (Eloise knew, and was probably watching to make sure it happened).


(I'm very glad I happened to sit down and watch the last 6 episodes of season 5 yesterday. The Variable, Follow The Leader, and The Incident relate to all of these questions.)

awesome. why do i love the desmond eps best?

i'm sorry, did anyone else get sorta creeped at the look in
desmond's eye when he said "i just need to show them somthin" ?

reminded me of dan akroyd in twilight zone the movie...heh...

"ya wanna see somethin really scary?"

I like the Des a lot, too.

The way that Desmond warmed up to Widmore ... and then went right off with Sayid ... reminds me that Desmond has been able to see the future. And he has already learned the lesson of not trying to change what he has seen.

I think Des has seen what he has to do, what he will do. So he knew he had to go with Sayid, it was like a movie playing out for him that he already had seen. That was my impression, anyway.

What's delightfully ambiguous is we don't know whose side he is on or what he will do. Is he saving the island, or is he plodding through with its destruction because he knows it's inevitable and knows he can't really change what he has seen?

Right now all fingers point to him following Sayid back to BLocke, where he will deliver the passenger list that BLocke wanted. (Murrin, didn't you say he wanted that list?) So that doesn't look good from the Widmore-against-all-things-ending point of view.

Murrin wrote:Eloise knew exactly what she was setting up Daniel for when she made him into the person he became.

But did she intend to create the paradox that has been created? (Daniel goes back in time, blows up island, changes history, Daniel never goes to island, island does not blow up, hostory is not changed, Daniel goes back in time ...)

If so, why? To trap the Man in Black in a chronic historesis loop?

When smokey first appeared as Locke on Hydra Island in S5, he asked Caesar for the passenger list from Ajira 316. But I think he knows enough now about who came to the island to not need it.

I think Eloise did it all for a simple reason - to reverse the event where she killed Daniel. She was very disturbed by Daniel's appearance and discovering when he died that he was her son, and Jack told her, in almost these exact words, that if they do what was written in his journal it would never have to happen.

Now as I said before, I think the fact she continued following the journal despite nothing changing suggests either that she was clinging to some distant hope that it'd work somehow, or she knew that it had created a divergent reality, and that she had to maintain the original timeline in order to preserve the timeline where Daniel lived.


I would not be surprised to see at some point a flashback that reveals what happened immediately before she told young Daniel he had to give up the piano. She walked into the room crying, watched him play briefly, and then steeled herself to crush his dream. I would be interested to see why she waited until that moment to begin pushing him, what changed.