Depression

[aliantha]

Sorus -

Dunno what else to say, so here's another one.

Oh hell - group hug!

[lorin]

Lorin - /hug

I've been avoiding this forum, but this line resonated with me:

I do not want to do to others, to people that are important to me, what was done to me.

I've been typing out and deleting a reply for the last hour, and most of it is going to stay deleted because even after 20 years it's still not something I'm comfortable talking about.

My mother did not commit suicide. She's still alive. She did use the threat to manipulate me through my entire childhood. It made me the person I am today - responsible, self-destructive, and almost completely incapable of trusting another human being.

There's a part of me that wonders if I would have been better off without her, and I hate myself for thinking that.

I wanted to say something upbeat and inspirational, but the best I can offer is, you're not alone.

Ok, I've had some sleep and now I can face this post.

I am going to be very very honest here. Yes I was sad when my mother exited.......wait, if I am going to be honest let me stop using words that dance around the subject.......I was sad when my mother committed suicide. Yes, I was/am angry. Yes I was/am guilty. But Sorus, truth is, though maybe this is the first time I admitted it out loud, I was relieved. I lived with the threat all my life like a gigantic cloud that hung over my every move. Should I move out? No, my mother may need me. Can I say how I feel? No it may trigger my mother. It's quiet in the next room, should I check and see if she is ok or will it make her more upset. I can't go out on a date because there is no one to watch her (or her newborn son). Should I check the cabinets for drugs? Is she suicidal this time because of something I said? Did I leave the house dirty? Did I cook the baby's food wrong and it sent her into a depression? I could never tell her if I made a friend because it might trigger her loneliness and send her into a depression. When I got my first menstrual I thought I was dying and could not tell her because I worried that she would blame herself and become suicidal.

I spent the most nights sleeping outside her door, listening for sounds, or trying to calm my brother so his cries wouldn't trigger her into another episode. I did my homework sitting in the hallway next to her bedroom, listening in the silence for life sounds. And when she wasn't suicidal, she was threatening suicide........

And on and on it went...... It colored and shaped every single decision I made from her first attempt at 9 years until her death. And here is the deep dark secret ......part of me, and not a small part of me, wishes she had been successful the first time.

So don't hate yourself for thinking those thoughts, or at least try not to hate yourself. You and I, and many many others lived through a nightmare of selfish manipulation (sorry Vraith). What else, what other defense do we have from this onslaught than to lash out? Isn't it natural to wonder what life would have been like ..........if................. if you only had one moment of grief to deal with instead of a lifetime. If your entire existence hadn't been consumed with the desperation of trying to keep someone else alive. If you had just been given a chance, a moment to look at yourself, to like yourself, to believe in yourself.

[Sorus]

Good lord. You just described my life.

(No, you didn't trigger me. This has been on my mind every day for the past several months. I hope I haven't made your situation worse with all the analyzing.)

I realized something earlier this year, looking back with that big anniversary approaching.

All the time I spent walking on eggshells was essentially useless. At best I could prolong setting off a trigger. Maybe I prevented it today, but it's going to happen tomorrow.

And most importantly, and I wish more than anything I could tell my past self this - it wasn't my fault. Yes, what I said set her off, but it would have happened anyway because that's just how she was. Is. There is a part of me that feels I did lose her twenty years ago - not the ultimate loss, but something vital nonetheless.

Then there's the part of me that has never stopped walking on eggshells, the part of me that automatically assumes the worst every time she doesn't answer her phone. Because for all the hell she has put me through I do love her. And I can't fix her. I can't save her from herself.

And we're all messed up. Every last one of us.

This is really not something I have ever talked about, and for a long time I did think that I was alone.

Thank you all for being here.

[lorin]

I realized something earlier this year, looking back with that big anniversary approaching.

I am not sure what anniversary you are talking about but I do know anniversaries are dangerous. They are a time when you need to do things to protect yourself. I know that one of the reasons I am thinking about my mother's suicide now is because I will be coming up on that date soon. Find places to be, people to talk to. You, like me, are very isolated. It is good that you put your stuff here. It is brave of you.

All the time I spent walking on eggshells was essentially useless. At best I could prolong setting off a trigger. Maybe I prevented it today, but it's going to happen tomorrow.

And most importantly, and I wish more than anything I could tell my past self this - it wasn't my fault. Yes, what I said set her off, but it would have happened anyway because that's just how she was. Is. There is a part of me that feels I did lose her twenty years ago - not the ultimate loss, but something vital nonetheless.

Then there's the part of me that has never stopped walking on eggshells, the part of me that automatically assumes the worst every time she doesn't answer her phone. Because for all the hell she has put me through I do love her. And I can't fix her. I can't save her from herself.

And we're all messed up. Every last one of us.

This is really not something I have ever talked about, and for a long time I did think that I was alone.

Thank you all for being here.

I am going to be honest here. It may happen. You may find one day that she has made that choice. And in the end what I discovered was there is nothing you could or can do about it. Of course this is the intellectual part of me saying that. The child in me screams and cries and feels all the guilt that was intended for me. You cannot control her decisions.

I think you can still talk to your past self. With help you can make that decision. You can't, I can't change the past but we can change how we look at it and how we let it effect our present. It isn't easy for people like you and me to ask for help. We tend to isolate. I think it is all about the fear of losing people so we don't ask for help.

I started therapy last week. It is very very hard to talk about this and many issues. I worry about everything. I worry about admitting these feelings of self destruction, I worry that people around me will abandon me, I feel like I will harm other people with my honesty. All I can say is one thing. You are probably 20 years younger than me. Try not to wake up 20 years from now regretting that you didn't ask for help. Life slips by and all of a sudden you are 59 years old filled with the same turmoils and wounds of your childhood.

[rdhopeca]

My circumstances are dramatically less severe than yours Lorin, or yours, Sorus. I have no such fear for my parents' lives or such guilt about how they've turned out. I can't even begin to wonder what that would be like.

That said, I was still surprised...shocked really...when I went back to therapy to find out how much I ended up talking about and going over and over again my personal move history as I outlined above. I was, or so I thought, 20 years removed from that sort of issue. But now I have kids, and some of the triggers I was encountering with them seemed to come out of nowhere, as if I'd stepped outside myself. So I finally tried to talk to someone about where the f**k this sudden, uncontrolled anger was coming from.

And we ended up back on all my moving and how nothing matters and so on and so forth. I was amazed how much it came back to that, and how much it likely impacts my relationships today with my wife and my two beautiful children. Even with parenting courses, even with a good faith effort, every now and then I just go bonkers. I realize every parent loses patience and yells at their kids sometimes, but I couldn't ever tell why it would happen and why it was so uncontrolled.

I guess my point is, like you said, Lorin. You may think you are past it. You may think you understand it. But all it takes is something, some crisis, some exhaustion, and it comes back to you. Scary feeling.

[Vraith]

You and I, and many many others lived through a nightmare of selfish manipulation (sorry Vraith).

Hey, you don't have to apologize to me. I just have a thing about this issue, for a number of reasons.
It sounds to me like your mother [and Sorus'] had other problems. There are many possibilities, and this is common...way too common. Sometimes depression, suicidal impulse/ideation/tendencies are the illness/primary themselves...but quite often they are a symptom/secondary of another problem.

I almost always feel driven to make this point when the issue of "selfish" [and the related] come up. Saying it's selfishness isn't much different than saying it's demon possession in effect...as long as people believe it, real understanding and answers will be hidden. [for those connected/affected as well as the sufferers themselves].

Other people's selfishness is a comforting stance for people to take...lot's of people. We humans use it all the time. It's very flexible.
I'm not saying we use it consciously often...but we feel it, are viscerally impacted by it.
For instance, you might [or might not] be amazed at the number of people connected to dead or permanently disabled heroes who feel exactly what people are describing related to suicides/attempted suicides.
Some of it is just [heh---just. merely. only. cuz it's so easy] our old friend grief. But not all of it.
The media tends to show us all the people proud and strong...though sad, of course, especially at first...cuz Dad covered that grenade, or Mom dove into the rip-tide. They don't show us the others [and often the SAME ones, when they're alone] permanently wounded and struggling with the selfish S [or D] O B.
The only real way to make "selfishness" a defining feature is to believe what...hmmm...Avatar, I think? believes...that everything we ever do is selfish at root.

[lorin]

I had to take a break from this thread for a few days. But I'm back, with thoughts...

That said, I was still surprised...shocked really...when I went back to therapy to find out how much I ended up talking about and going over and over again my personal move history as I outlined above. I was, or so I thought, 20 years removed from that sort of issue. But now I have kids, and some of the triggers I was encountering with them seemed to come out of nowhere, as if I'd stepped outside myself. So I finally tried to talk to someone about where the f**k this sudden, uncontrolled anger was coming from.

And we ended up back on all my moving and how nothing matters and so on and so forth. I was amazed how much it came back to that, and how much it likely impacts my relationships today with my wife and my two beautiful children. Even with parenting courses, even with a good faith effort, every now and then I just go bonkers. I realize every parent loses patience and yells at their kids sometimes, but I couldn't ever tell why it would happen and why it was so uncontrolled.

I guess my point is, like you said, Lorin. You may think you are past it. You may think you understand it. But all it takes is something, some crisis, some exhaustion, and it comes back to you. Scary feeling.

I don't know if I am past it, to tell the truth. I feel it bubble up every few seconds . Kidding aside, it affects (effects?) everything in my life. I am always amazed how my father interprets his constant, unceasing moving. He feels, he says how he exposed my brother and I to other cultures, different people. He thinks it is his defining gift to us. My father was not in the military, not required to move. He just did. Over and over. He is so clueless now. I hear him tell his friends how his children had such a wonderful life. You know what I remember about those times? Not so much but a few things. I remember that there was no possibility of making friends because nobody spoke my language, or if they did, I was the new (and increasingly hefty) kid that couldn't look anyone in the eyes. I remember my mother standing in front of packing boxes, crying. And I remember that at 6 years old I had my first suicidal ideations. I was in the back of the apartment building we were renting in Zurich. I saw a clothes line. I found a rope and was pretending to hang myself. Got as far as wrapping the rope around my neck. Those are my memories. The pathetic thing is I never tell him any of these things. I swallow it (as well as 1/2 a pizza) and let him live in his delusions. He is 84. What is the point?

I look at my brother, not the baby but the one next to me in age. He suffers differently and equally. He hid his fears in drugs and alcohol. And now he is dying. His body so damaged from self abuse that it can no longer sustain him. Every day I try to find a reason for him not to off himself. It's a family legacy. He makes the threat almost every time I speak to him. He has no friends, does not know how to reach out to anyone. every breath is a struggle for him. I am not sure I have any reason for him not to check out early. (there are those decorative dance around words again). I use guilt to keep him from killing himself. But do I have a right?

You and I, and many many others lived through a nightmare of selfish manipulation (sorry Vraith).

Hey, you don't have to apologize to me. I just have a thing about this issue, for a number of reasons.
It sounds to me like your mother [and Sorus'] had other problems. There are many possibilities, and this is common...way too common. Sometimes depression, suicidal impulse/ideation/tendencies are the illness/primary themselves...but quite often they are a symptom/secondary of another problem.

I almost always feel driven to make this point when the issue of "selfish" [and the related] come up. Saying it's selfishness isn't much different than saying it's demon possession in effect...as long as people believe it, real understanding and answers will be hidden. [for those connected/affected as well as the sufferers themselves].

Other people's selfishness is a comforting stance for people to take...lot's of people. We humans use it all the time. It's very flexible.
I'm not saying we use it consciously often...but we feel it, are viscerally impacted by it.
For instance, you might [or might not] be amazed at the number of people connected to dead or permanently disabled heroes who feel exactly what people are describing related to suicides/attempted suicides.
Some of it is just [heh---just. merely. only. cuz it's so easy] our old friend grief. But not all of it.
The media tends to show us all the people proud and strong...though sad, of course, especially at first...cuz Dad covered that grenade, or Mom dove into the rip-tide. They don't show us the others [and often the SAME ones, when they're alone] permanently wounded and struggling with the selfish S [or D] O B.
The only real way to make "selfishness" a defining feature is to believe what...hmmm...Avatar, I think? believes...that everything we ever do is selfish at root.

I think it should be that a parents love for their child trumps everything else. That a parents drive to protect and nurture their child should be primal and a priority. When a parent commits suicide he or she puts his or her child's safety and well being behind his or her own needs. Therefore, to me when a parent does this he or she is selfish. Granted, my perspective is tainted with my life. I have been fighting these feelings all my life. I have sought therapy, sought medication, sought ....well everything. I manage them. But they are there, in the shadows. I would not, ever inflict my death on a child. I would never do that so consciously or unconsciously, I have never had children. It is without a doubt my greatest source of pain but the unselfish thing was not to bring a child into this world only to turn their life into a nightmare. My family line is damaged. There is a long line of suicide and self harm. I will not, not, not be a part of it. I will not do this to a child. Neither of my two brothers have children either.

[Sorus]

I've been writing and deleting a reply again.

While there are differences, the similarities hit a little too close to home.

[lorin]

I've been writing and deleting a reply again.

While there are differences, the similarities hit a little too close to home.

I don't do this but............for you

Don't force yourself.

[Obi-Wan Nihilo]

I am not sure if this amounts to 100% agreement with lorin, but I think that willfully neglecting to consider the needs and interests of those with an inherent claim upon your protection and nurture, must exist at the nexus of narcissism and the concept we call "evil".

[Morning]

Hey lorin, count me in.

I lost my best friend at the age of 7, my first "real" infatuation / girlfriend at 16, a good friend at 19, all four grandparents within a 5 year period (one from infallible suicide) and after a hard breakup from a 7-8yr domestic partnership, met a girl with whom I thought stuff could begin anew. We had 2 months of idyllic passion and planning, then they found stage III liver cancer, and she died pretty quick. This was last year.

The odd bit is that I placed all of these (and other chapters, that I, like Sorus, prefer to write in invisible ink) things on the backburner to be dealt, steadily but in "hidden mode" by split-processes of me. I'm not talking going schizo here, I mean I can actually multitask (and I'm male ) so I just fired and forgot every time a really bad thing happened.

As a result, I was never symptomatic or suspect of depression or any other mental disorder. But I cannot recall when was the last time I had a fiftul night's sleep or one free of night terrors if I skip the clonazepam.

Anyway, hug. Y'all.

[Linna Heartbooger]

I lost my best friend at the age of 7,
my first "real" infatuation / girlfriend at 16,
a good friend at 19,
all four grandparents within a 5 year period (one from infallible suicide) and
after a hard breakup from a 7-8yr domestic partnership,
met a girl with whom I thought stuff could begin anew. We had 2 months of idyllic passion and planning, then they found stage III liver cancer, and she died pretty quick. This was last year.

I'm sorry for your losses, Morning.
Especially stunned to hear about the most recent one.
That's like having a hope and a dream whipped out of your hands like a scrap of paper by the wind.

...And wow, lorin and sorus, I am reading your last page of posts with a time-delay of a bunch of months.
<3
*hugs* to each of you, and, well... I'm glad you each spoke.

[Morning]

Thanks, I guess. On the flipside I learned very early to take nothing for granted, and I mean nothing, not even the next minute, which in turn probably helped me to develop my professional, academic and social skills.

Sorus, I don't know what to make of the term "self-destructive" you employed by up there, but hey, if you think that a guy with absolutely no desire to self-destruct might help, feel free to drop a word anytime. We can try to replace that with some nerdy chaos

[aliantha]

Sorry for your losses, Morning. That's a lot to take in in one life.

[Morning]

Sorry for your losses, Morning. That's a lot to take in in one life.

Thx, Ali. But you know what's worse? I've seen people take a lot more and a lot harder.

And being trapped in a bureaucratic purgatory, too. Spent the last three hours wading through Int'l Adoption hows and wheres, and found out I will be deemed un-eligible if I eventually apply for the costly (in time and money) process, because I have no fixed income, "merely" wealth. Portuguese social security, the mandatory entry point to every applicant, REQUIRES fixed income. You can have a million euros but anyone with a monthly 1k eur salary will get to save a kid, not you.

[Linna Heartbooger]

Umm, so my moods have had a lot of "just being unhappy/sad" lately...
Ummmm... I'm doin chemotherapy right now!

I was diagnosed with breast cancer last year.
Got through my surgery, and... the second week of February, I started chemo.

I have little energy most of the time, and feel gross.
Being sick for three weeks or so during the beginning of chemo had me doing rotten.
Now, things are somewhat better: most days have the rough times and the bright spots...

I do so hate making an assessment of whether what I'm experiencing right now is actually "depression," y'know what I mean?

[lorin]

Well going through that diagnosis and treatment entitles you to feel depressed/off. You are going through a life altering experience that brings up all kinds of deep's stuff'. Give yourself permission to feel the feelings, whatever they be.

Are you involved in a support group? There are quite a few really good ones. You should also be seeing a nutritionist and a therapist. Chemo isn't easy in the best of cases. You need friends and family propping you up. And if you're not getting it..........DEMAND IT!

Where do you live? I will help you find a group. I know you find a lot of solace in religious support but there is also a time for a non religious group going through the same things you are going through. And try not to isolate, it makes things worse.

People around here can be of great support, but 3d hugs are way better, girl.

[Fist and Faith]

Yikes! You sure don't need to have clinical depression to be legitimately depressed with that crap going on! Feel better!

[Avatar]

What Fist said.

--A

[michaelm]

It's taken me a while to write this and I didn't want to edit anything, just write it without over thinking it, but give myself enough time to think before actually writing.

Depression takes many forms and it may or may not have its roots in upbringing or an inherent mental illness. Sometimes it's just life circumstances that overwhelm us, but whatever the cause, they symptoms are the same and I don't think anyone has the right to compare or judge - depression is depression, no matter what causes it.

I'll prelude this with some of my own background. I had a very happy childhood with no real emotional trauma until I was an adult. In fact, close family deaths aside, I don't know that I had any real issues with depression until I was over 40.

I haven't come here to list the triggers of my depression or even tell a story. Mostly it was because I wanted to tell people that I have in some ways felt similar things and have also struggled with the guilt and feel the pressure from people around me to not show it.

A few years ago I started seeing a really good therapist and it really helped to have the opportunity to talk with someone. I stopped for a few years, and then started going again, but I don't feel like I'm benefiting in the same way. It's not that the therapist is bad, perhaps more that circumstances are worse now and I struggle to know what to do.

The trouble with depression is that no one can see it on the outside. I can operate normally on a day to day basis and can be happy. I just have these dark clouds hanging over me that won't go away on their own. There's only so much I can do, and in some cases nothing I can do.

Like I said, I'm not coming here to list my problems, but I do want to in some way say to everyone that you're not alone. There is help out there, and you're not the only one feeling this way. Your doubts and fears are the same as everyone else feels, and we all have similar roads to travel to try to make some sense of everything that goes on.

There, I've done it. I'm not going to go back and change a single word. I hope it in some small way makes any of you feel that this is something that we're all potentially subject to at some time in our lives.