Was Covenant older than The Land?

Post by **Fist and Faith** » Tue Sep 16, 2003 3:07 pm

Covenant's earth and the Land's could not be within the same Arch of Time, because the Creator said he would shatter the Arch if he went into it to help the Land. So he would have shattered it when he went to Covenant's earth.

Plus, if both Earths were within the Creator's Arch, wouldn't that mean that the Creator created both? He made the Arch, after all, so that his creation would have a place to exist. I'd be surprised to find another's creation within his Arch, hanging out beside his own.

Post by **Skyweir** » Tue Sep 16, 2003 4:26 pm

oh yes .. that really is impracticable ..

I agree .. the two worlds mentioned are distinct and seperate and independant worlds..

At the end of TPTP the creator addresses TC and explains that there are 'creators' - plural

Presumably we have our own creator then .. or TC's world has its own creator

.. should that world not be the one we inhabit

but to me there is every indication it is

It really doesnt make sense that the 'creator' old beggar guy with the poor dental hygene .. dude .. is THE only creator .. or even the creator of both worlds.

And as for the AoT expanding to encompass both worlds .. this makes even less reason imo ..

imho .. The AoT encompasses and preserves the existence of the Lands earth .. not our earth

and as for (((birdandbear))) .. thats most definately a hug-worthy statement!! LOL

elipses are evil i know .. but i just cant stop using them

sometimes you just need a longer pause than a comma can provide

Post by **Gil galad** » Tue Sep 16, 2003 7:41 pm

If there are two seperate arches of time, and foul is imprisoned within his own arch, how then is he able to reach across and influence people on 'our' side?

Post by **aTOMiC** » Tue Sep 16, 2003 11:42 pm

I believe the two differing time factors is sufficient evidence of two separate Arcs of Time. The two worlds have wildly different natural laws, which further suggests an independence of environments for each earth. Only SRD knows for certain how contact between the worlds is possible but clearly the summoning and Lord Foul’s ability to influence Joan and the other townspeople in the Second Chronicles is proof that Foul’s imprisonment does not completely prevent this. The breaking of the Law of Death and the destruction of the Staff of Law further contributed to Foul’s ability to reach beyond his confinement.

Post by **Skyweir** » Wed Sep 17, 2003 3:20 am

clearfrontier wrote:I believe the two differing time factors is sufficient evidence of two separate Arcs of Time. The two worlds have wildly different natural laws, which further suggests an independence of environments for each earth.

gedi_gm .. think of it something like this .. a hypothetical

Lets say this earth inhabits a similar temporal time and space .. and there is a similar conceptual AoT preserving those 2 vital elements to any existence .. yet some who inhabit this world may claim to reach into other realms .. beyond this one physical/material one and communicate with inhabitants of those realms .. worlds what-have-you

hypothetically speaking

Some in our real world make this claim .. and whether it is true or not .. lets just consider it possible .. If one can communicate with those who do not inhabit this space .. does it impact on our time and space? well hypothetically no!

ok take another sci-fi theme .. one can communicate with other worlds without destroying the fabric of our own world .. in reality we can even travel to other planets without affecting the fabric or integrity of our own ..

Foul may be able to appear in TC's world in some form but his essence .. his being .. whatever that actually is .. remains imprisoned within the Creators earth ..

clearfrontier wrote:The breaking of the Law of Death and the destruction of the Staff of Law further contributed to Foul’s ability to reach beyond his confinement.

absolutely! this is an important factor that goes to explain Fouls enhanced power and reach ..

Post by **aTOMiC** » Wed Sep 17, 2003 3:28 am

Skyweir, I simply can't agree with you more and your explanation leaves little room for debate. Bravo!

Post by **Gil galad** » Wed Sep 17, 2003 8:58 am

Can you clarify the term 'a similar temporal time and space' it seems vague

Post by **Fist and Faith** » Wed Sep 17, 2003 12:42 pm

Skyweir wrote:Some in our real world make this claim .. and whether it is true or not .. lets just consider it possible .. If one can communicate with those who do not inhabit this space .. does it impact on our time and space? well hypothetically no!

Egads! The impact of such communication would be HUGE!! Our understanding of physics/the nature of reality would change, possibly revealing amazing things about our universe that we had never imagined.

The military would need a huge budget increase, to prepare for the imminent invasion from this other realm.

NASA would probably be the ones to head the search for a way to get to the other realm, and would need a huge budget increase also. And what if you were able to go there, and come back in an entirely different part of our universe? Faster-than-light travel?

And if they were able to get there, would any percentage of our population want to go live there? And what political ramifications would that have?

And what diseases might they bring back, putting the medical community into overdrive.

I can't imagine all the religious implications. And I'm sure cults would spring up like wildfire, as in Contact.

If the thought processes of these other-realmers were different from our own, they might reveal things about our own.

And this is just a 5-minute list!

(This is fun!

LOL)

Post by **Fist and Faith** » Wed Sep 17, 2003 12:53 pm

Skyweir wrote:LOL .. mmm .. this is a theory F&F seems to like to the idea that the Creator created TC ..

Actually, I never liked the theory. I just didn't know how else to explain the fact that Covenant was the keystone of the Arch of Time. But that was before I had considered the idea that Covenant was merely made of the same stuff as the keystone - wild magic.

And just for the sake of starting trouble, I don't think we know that Covenant is in or part of the Arch even now. He placed himself between Foul and the Arch. Being wild magic, he was able to absorb the blasts of wild magic that Foul was throwing at the Arch before they hit it. He could merely be one of the Dead now, though one made of wild magic who probably tries to keep his eye out for the Arch's well-being.

Post by **Skyweir** » Wed Sep 17, 2003 7:43 pm

Fist and Faith wrote:
Skyweir wrote:Some in our real world make this claim .. and whether it is true or not .. lets just consider it possible .. If one can communicate with those who do not inhabit this space .. does it impact on our time and space? well hypothetically no!
Egads! The impact of such communication would be HUGE!! Our understanding of physics/the nature of reality would change, possibly revealing amazing things about our universe that we had never imagined.

oh dear Fisty Fisty *shakes head* LOL .. I am asserting that whether or not we can or do communicate with those who do not inhabit the same temporal and time and space as we do ..

would NOT IMPACT on our temporal integrity!! the earth would presumably retain its existence .. and not be torn asunder because of its inhabitants communicating with those outside of this world .. or even leaving this world to travel to worlds outside of this one ..

as in the AoT concept if applied to our own earth .. would not be torn asunder because of this activity.

Post by **Skyweir** » Wed Sep 17, 2003 7:47 pm

Fist and Faith wrote:

And just for the sake of starting trouble, I don't think we know that Covenant is in or part of the Arch even now.

I totally agree!! I have always held this doubt as to this assertion myself .. as to what is actually meant .. and we dont know categorically that TC is .. or if he is .. is it more rhetorical than actual ..

F&F wrote: He placed himself between Foul and the Arch. Being wild magic, he was able to absorb the blasts of wild magic that Foul was throwing at the Arch before they hit it. He could merely be one of the Dead now, though one made of wild magic who probably tries to keep his eye out for the Arch's well-being.

absolutely!! .. we really dont know what kind of role TC does play now .. I agree!

Post by **Gil galad** » Wed Sep 17, 2003 11:00 pm

NOT IMPACT on our temporal integrity

We are not all astrophysisists here can you PLEASE explain your meaning these phrases[/quote]

Post by **Fist and Faith** » Thu Sep 18, 2003 1:47 am

Ah! OK, gotcha, Sky.

Post by **Skyweir** » Thu Sep 18, 2003 5:13 am

.. ya did?? .. ya sure??

lol

gedi_gms .. by our temporal integrity .. i mean our existence ..

communicating with another world or even travelling there .. as TC did to the Land .. and as Foul's reach .. touched our own world ..

none of these actions .. affected <as had a negative or destructive impact on the actual existence of our world or that of the Creators world>

like it is clearly possible to reach through the AoT .. and for beings to enter and exit the Creators world .. without breaking or damaging the AoT .. or so it seems

the same is true of our own world .. the existence of our world is not destroyed because one can communicate with another world .. or travel outside of it ..

I believe that for a world to exist .. it must occupy a 'temporal space' or physical space .. and must also occupy 'time' .. its existence is governed or made operational by this principal 'time' ..

Post by **Fist and Faith** » Thu Sep 18, 2003 5:31 am

Sky wrote:I believe that for a world to exist .. it must occupy a 'temporal space' or physical space .. and must also occupy 'time' .. its existence is governed or made operational by this principal 'time' ..

Maybe, maybe not. Though time is a property of our reality, it need not be a property of every other reality. (If there actually are any others.) Time here passes at a different rate depending on things like your speed, whether you're on a mountaintop or in the valley, and other things. But the physical laws here might not exist on other planes of existence. Effects are thought to precede their causes in (iirc) black holes. Time itself might not exist elsewhere.

(:) Wanna borrow my "Bite Me"?)

Post by **Skyweir** » Thu Sep 18, 2003 5:47 am

Fist and Faith wrote: Though time is a property of our reality, it need not be a property of every other reality.

I dont see 'time' as conceptual property .. lol .. imo time is more like a state ..

Time here passes at a different rate depending on things like your speed, whether you're on a mountaintop or in the valley, and other things. But the physical laws here might not exist on other planes of existence.

that really doesnt matter .. how time operates on other worlds as compared to our own .. time is a condition that allows existence .. if i can describe it like that

.. or how it operates on our own world .. the very fact that time is variable on different worlds goes to show that 'time' is fundamental to each temporal sphere ..

I think Creators are bound by Universal laws .. and must operate within them .. <fictionally speaking ofcourse

> LOL .. but nevertheless .. space and time relationships seem pivotal to creation of worlds. I am convinced of it

LOL

.. regardless of how time operates on a given world ..

for a world to exist it must have a space within which to occupy .. and a time within which also to occupy ..

F&F wrote:(:) Wanna borrow my "Bite Me"?)

if you're asking me .. YAH!! lol .. definately!!

gimme ..

and .. lol .. F&F ...

BITE ME!!

Post by **Fist and Faith** » Thu Sep 18, 2003 6:14 am

Skyweir wrote:<fictionally speaking ofcourse >

Ah! Well that's a different story! I'm not aware of any fictional realities that don't have time. Interesting idea, but difficult for us time-dependents to contemplate. (Remember when they went to the 2-dimensional reality in A Wrinkle in Time? That was nifty!) Even the wormhole in Deep Space 9 seemed to have time, despite their assertion otherwise - they just moved freely back and forth in it.

Anyway, I was speaking of other possibilities, where

Skyweir wrote:time is a condition that allows existence

may or may not be true.

And borrow the <IMG SRC=kevinswatch.ihugny.com/phpBB2/album_see.php?id=128> whenever you want. But you gotta mean it!

Post by **Skyweir** » Thu Sep 18, 2003 6:47 am

LOL .. like I dont

haha .. well in a manner of speakin' .. I dont in all honesty refer just to fictional realities .. but worlds/planets .. in general ..

the same principal applies ..

but as this discussion is based on a work of fiction .. I was applying these concepts to this fictional theme .. but tis indeed part of our reality .. and existence ..

space/time relationship .. it is no fiction

Post by **Fist and Faith** » Thu Sep 18, 2003 6:51 am

True enough. But when you posited the existence of another reality that we could communicate with, though we would not be harmed by said communication, I felt I should point out that that other reality need not have time of any sort. It's not a given that every reality that may exist must have time.

Post by **Skyweir** » Thu Sep 18, 2003 7:03 am

but in fact .. it is arguably so.

TIME/SPACE .. temporally interwined into the fabric of the existence continuum .. any existence continuum

and anyway .. as to my point about communication .. that was to demonstrate that the simple act of communication with other worlds .. or leaving one world to visit another .. does not disrupt our TIME/SPACE continuum .. our existence ..

the earth's temporal integrity remains intact

just as the Lands .. even though TC and others entered it .. and notwithstanding Drool, Foul etc.. commicating with our world ..

the AoT remained untouched .. or intact .. thus preserving its unique TIME/SPACE existence ..

Kevin's Watch

Kevin's Watch

Was Covenant older than The Land?