Was Covenant older than The Land?

[Worm of Despite]

Anybody know, roughly, how old The Land is? Anyway, Covenant was like, what, 40, by the time of the Second Chronicles? Anyway, over 10 years of his lifespan, 4,000 years passed on The Land? Or maybe 3,000 . . . I forget. But, let's just say 4,000 and see here . . . *calculates* Correct me if I'm wrong, but 16,000 years must've passed on The Land from the time Covenant was born to the time the Second Chronicles began. Maybe, if the Land wasn't real, then the history of it--namely, its creation--began at his birth? And then while he was a kid, Berek Halfhand was working his mojo on the Queen and all that stuff, and then while he was teen or something, Lord Foul goes "BAM, Kevin, I'm not really a good guy!" And then everything leads up to Covenant turning 30, in which he gets dragged into The Land ala Lord Foul's Bane. Um, am I making sense here?

[Ryzel]

Yes, but we do not really have any hard data on this. The old lords were said to live for a very long time, but we do not know for how long. What we do know is that pure service to earthpower can extend a human life to at least 4000 years (Caer-Caveral) and that some of the Waynhim were that old too.

It this is the case then 16000 years seems to be too short.

[Romeo]

I thought about this before, as well. When - in our world - was the Land's earth created? I think that the time conversion is 3500 years of Land time for 10 years of ours.

Could the Creator be a resident of our world? If so, he could have created the Land a lot more than 40 years ago. But I still think that it might be too short of a time span for the millenia that the One Forest existed before man moved into the area. (which I think is our oldest reference for time in the Land's earth)

[Taiga Tzu]

Unfortunately, even the Forestaal cannot say how long the One Forest existed in peaceful joy before the Ravers came along. It simply... was. There is no sense of time. It existed in the now-moment.

[danlo]

As soon as Berek died Covenant was born! (just a random stone tossed in the pond! )

[Kinslaughterer]

What if this poor sap was actually Berek (or refered to that way) but caught in a crazy time loop? Owww! that just hurt my head, nevermind. What was I talking about?

[Worm of Despite]

I was sort of grasping for straws, going, "Well, maybe the land is a really DEEP, inborn neurosis Covenant has that also involves another person from his world." Heh. People have had LONG dreams before, but not as long as The Land. And people HAVE shared dreams before (or thought they have), to my knowledge, but not as involved as Covenant and Linden's interactions. It's all explainable--that is, if the land weren't real; but it's also long shot.

Donaldson never wanted us to know if the Land was real or not, anyway. That’s why he removed Gilden-Fire from the Illearth War. I still think it’s a bit debatable--its existence and all. Like, how whatever injuries Covenant gets before he is summoned to the Land is healed, BUT, when he IS hurt in the Land, the injury usually occurs at the exact spot where he was hurt before the summoning. Also, he never leaves the Land with a beard. I remember that he did grow one to prove that it’s a dream, seeing as his self in the real world was clean-shaven. But he shaved it off! Again, Donaldson wants us to not truly know.

[Lord Mhoram]

The thought had occured to me, LF. Covenant's birth could have spurred the creation of the Land...but who knows? 16000 years might not be long enough. Remember, we know close to nothing of the Land before Berek's war with the King.

[kastenessen]

Yes LF. But in Morinmoss with the healer he takes her clothes and leaves his old ones in the cave doesn't he. So he leaves the land with the robe, or maybe naked because of the powers unleashed.

[Worm of Despite]

I don't think he was wearing the same clothes when he woke up in the hospital bed. Maybe hospital clothes or something . . . Maybe that robe looked exactly like what the patients wear in hospitals? Man, that'd be funny, thinking of the remainder of the book with him wearing that!

[Kinslaughterer]

I think Covenant may have gotten cold running around in a hospital gown with no back in the depths of the Land's winter.
Talk about looking like a fanatic.

[Fist and Faith]

Well, LF, as I've been saying recently, I think the Land is, indeed, a dream, though my evidence is other than your idea. And it would be a lot easier to defend this position without Linden. But your idea of shared dreams (fightingmyinstincts brought up Jung's collective unconscious in the original thread a couple years ago) might be valid. My idea is that, assuming she is not entirely a figment of his imagination, maybe Covenant is (drumroll please) a telepath!! Easy enough to bring her along for the ride. And telepaths, since they deal with their own minds to a higher degree than non-telepaths, might be expected to have more detailed dreams.

So now everybody knows the truth of TCTC!!! Fist and Faith, take a bow!!!

[Worm of Despite]

Covenant, a telepath?! Next you're going to tell me he is the white gold. Heh *nervous laugh* heh . . .

I’ve had a change of heart in my view of TC being older than The Land. Here we go:

See, um, well,

Spoiler

since Covenant's dead in the real world

, and since there's a Third Chronicles coming, then let's assume that the Land has currently undergone at least a few millennia from the end of the Second Chronicles to the time Linden goes to the psycho ward to pay psycho-Joan a visit. That in mind, then the Land exists without needing Covenant to exist in the real world. So, The Land most likely was around before the birth of our favorite leper.

Or MAYBE Covenant's existence doesn't have to be in the "real world" for the Land to still exist. He could very well be in any form and anywhere (currently The Land with the Dead, to my knowledge), and the Land would still be. But when Covenant really, really goes (second death, I guess), then the Land will be destroyed (as rumored it will be). Thus, the whole “is the Land real or not” thing might be solved! But all in all, I think Donaldson’s (and Covenant’s) point was not to make it a mystery, but to draw it as far away from the central plot and theme of the story, which had nothing to do with whether or not the Land was real in the first place.

[Fist and Faith]

Ah, but if Covenant is the actual Creator - not that he's the beggar, but that he created the beggar too! - who's to say the creation doesn't continue after the creator is gone? A powerful enough telepath could be able to create a stable fantasy in the minds of others.

(I tell you, nobody has more fun around here than me! )

[Skyweir]

agreed!! .. and that fact alone argues against the Land being a dream of TC's ..

especially if LA or anyone else from our world ventures back to the Land ..

its no longer a part of TC's experience unless we are of the opinion that LA and Joan are all figments of TC's imagination..

then the whole discussion is moot

[Taiga Tzu]

What if this poor sap was actually Berek (or refered to that way) but caught in a crazy time loop? Owww! that just hurt my head, nevermind. What was I talking about?

I'm sorry. I feel like a fool, but I can't follow you. What does this have to do with sap?

[Worm of Despite]

Well, Covenant, in the words of SRD himself, was a "man who needed a fantasy". Plus, he was a leper. MAYBE, as a defense mechanism to shut him off from the "dangers" he always perceived to his leper self, he built a "wall" around himself. In this case, the said "wall" he built was THE LAND. It was a very subconscious thing--and it became so engrained in his mind that he didn’t know if it was real or whatever. All he could do was go "hellfire!" Anyway, not only did the Land take him away from the rigors of the life that caused him to need a fantasy in the first place, but it also made him a better man in the end. Two birds in one stone! So, obviously, Covenant refused to take the red pill and took the blue pill. Wait, no, he took the red pill. Yes, the red pill.

TC still exists, and we're going to see him again. Especially with the whole Law of Death thing being messed up. You can’t say that the Land is going on without him, cause he’s still there! Heck, he’s probably the most important part of the Land, now! Anyway, until he really goes, then the Land will remain. IF he dies AND the Land is destroyed with him, then that might say something about the Land's existence in relation to his own existence. Duh. But, well, Donaldson kept up the whole "is the Land real" mystery very well, didn't he? Oh well, only time and the Third Chronicles will tell. Hopefully. Maybe. Absolutely. Why not? It should! Damn it.

Personally, I think The Land is a mini-Matrix within Covenant who is in turn a Matrix within a Matrix. Thank you.

[Fist and Faith]

I'm thinking that Covenant's subconscious saw the danger he was in, and came up with the Land as a way of getting him back to where he could survive. He needed to learn to see beauty again, and to care again. And, no matter how hard you try to NOT do those things in the Land, you're gonna! You can't ignore a piano dropping on your head!

[Kinslaughterer]

I was suggesting that the Land is a time loop not unlike Bill and Ted's Excellent Adventure except Covenant is Berek he just doesn't know it yet. Actually I'm completely full of crap.

I don't think either group here will reach a statisfactory compromise. I suggest contacting Jimmy Carter.

[Worm of Despite]

Simpsons did it.

What if, and this is an IF, mind you, that Covenant is really a . . . Oh forget it! *crashes to his knees* The Land's REAL! I BELIEVE IT'S REAL! *cries* Why must we always hurt the ones we love?!